The Promise of the Permanent Indwelling Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Enow, Apr 8, 2011.

  1. Enow

    Enow
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    John 14:16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    Jesus was giving the conditions of when this promise of the permnanent indwelling Holy Spirit will be sent:

    John 14:18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

    Jesus was speaking to His disciples of a specific day for this promise to come with this following parameter.

    John 14: 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 29And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

    It is by Jesus having left to be with the Father as Our active Mediator is when the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit would come. It was that promise of the Father that Jesus had referred to and why He told the disciples tp tarry in Jerusalem.

    Luke 24: 48And ye are witnesses of these things. 49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. 50And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. 51And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. 52And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: 53And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

    So the Holy Spirit that the disciples had received at John 20:22 was not the actual promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit, because Jesus was still with them. The disciples had received the Holy Spirit for ministry to the House of Israel in Matthew 10 and that was temporary too. We know it is temporary because Judas Iscariot had the Holy Spirit too and yet he was lost.

    Matthew 10:1And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. 5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. ........ 18And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 19But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

    John 17:11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

    It was when He had come to the Father is when His joy is fulfilled in themselves.

    That promise on the Day of Pentecost is the fulfillment of His joy.

    So whenever a believer from that point on, believes in Jesus Christ: they receive the promise of the Spirit by faith as written plainly to the churches.

    Ephesians 1: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

    Galatians 3: 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    Hebrews 11: 1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    John 3: 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

    Hebrews 11: 6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    John 3:14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Galatians 3: 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    Has anyone noticed that there are commandments that comes with the promise of this permanent indwelling Holy Ghost? Notuced how the mentioned promise preceded this verse which was a contingency for it.

    John 14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    Those commandments has to be pretty important to receive this promise, but it cannot be everything that Jesus taught for we would never be saved so by following back to see what those commandments are, we find Jesus speaking of His relationship with the Father in how He will answer prayers.

    John 14: 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

    Then He talked about what greater works the disciples will do because He goes unto His Father, again setting the precedent for how this would be done.

    John 14:12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

    Then we go back to Jesus' words of reassurances to the disciples of His relationship with the Father that as they see Him, they see the Father.

    John 14: 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

    So no commandment as of yet because Jesus was explaining His relationship to the Father and thus we come to the commandment preceding this faith.

    John 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    That is the commandment of His invitation in how we are saved and thus have received the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit by believing in Jesus Christ. :jesus: Ephesians 1:12-15 confirms that.:godisgood:
     
  2. Enow

    Enow
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    How To Discern Against False Teachings & False Spirits

    What does that mean exactly when it comes to our faith against what is not?

    There is no more continual filling of the Spirit for believers to seek after.

    Matthew 9: 17Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

    2 Corinthians 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

    Epphesians 1: 17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

    Colossians 2: 5For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

    Believers are not to believe every spirit but discern them by the scriptures. They are not to allow the spirit of error, the sensational experience of some "spirit" coming over them into misleading them away from their resting place in the Son to chase after other "spirits" as an adulterous generation seeks after a sign.

    Those that err try to fit their experience into scriptures, pulling scriptures out of context to support this false teaching irregardless in how it departs from faith and from resting in the Son and thus not after Christ.

    To refute some of this misuse of scriptures are below:

    Ephesians 5: 18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

    The call here is to be sober: to remain in self control and thus hence to remain filled in the Spirit by what? By not getting drunk with wine. This is not a call to seek another filling of the "Spirit". Paul had written other calls for sobriety, and it did not involve invoking a filling of the Spirit to do so. There has never been a call for any believers that had been drunk that they need to fill themsleves up with the Spirit again. Neither has there been any such calls when a believer sows to any other works of the flesh like fornication to fill themselves up with the Spirit again. There has never been a necessity to pray over a trepassing brother so that he can be filled up with the Spirit again to be led to repent. Everything we do is by the word of God. That is how we reprove and correct and strengthen one another in the faith: not by seeking signs and wonders to gain assurances of being filled.

    There can be no war of the fruits of the Spirit against the works of the flesh if the fruits of the Spirit can be so easily knocked out of the ring. We mortify the deeds of the body by the Spirit as the word of God cleans us.

    John 15: 1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you..... 7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

    Thus the call to be sober is not a commandment to fill oneself up with the Holy Spirit again, but to remain filled with the Spirit in abiding in Him as opposed to sowing to the flesh in reaping corruption. Those that defile the temple of God which is your body are going to be chastened and scourged by God the Father, but the Holy Spirit is not going anywhere because you have been bought with a price and sealed as His and that is why the call to every believer that name the name of Christ is to depart from iniquity: not fill themelves up with the Spirit continually in order to live as His or be led by Jesus, the Good Shepherd.

    Jesus is with us always as promised as we are led by the word of God. The Holy Spirit within us convicts us by the word as we are reproved by the scriptures. We grow in the knowledge of Him so that our love may abound yet more and more. So it is by loving Jesus and His words is how we abide with His help and by His grace.:jesus::godisgood:
     
  3. Enow

    Enow
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    Reproving the Misuse of Scriptures in Acts

    Many will attest their experience still and look for incidences in Acts to show that believers do not always receive the Holy Spirit as promised, even though they shift their arguments from continual to not ever receiving the Spirit at all. They do not see what they are doing because they want to believe that their experiences is of God. They are using a historical account in Acts to create false teachings that goes against doctrines in the letters written to the early churches just because they are not understanding the event in Acts.

    Acts 19:1-7 in referring to those "certain disciples", they were not disciples of Jesus Christ but of John the Baptist's. Paul had inquired to confirm what kind of disciples they were when they never even heard of the Holy Ghost. So then Paul went on to tell them about Jesus Christ as being the One that John the Baptist was testifying of to come and had come already. Then they believed in Jesus Christ as it was then they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and thus concluding that they were not believers in Jesus Christ until Paul had told them about Jesus which is why they had not the Holu Ghost before.

    Acts 8:5-25 was an unusual event involving alot of spiritual warfare. These believers, including Simon, the sorceror, had not received the Holy Spirit yet even though they were baptized in Jesus name. Do note that the scriptures never specified that they believed in Jesus Christ: but they were receiving the word of God: that they were being receptive to the Good News.

    Acts 8:12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. 14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

    Was something holding them back from believing in Jesus Christ? Noting how the people regarded Simon the sorceror, we see his witness would be important to the Lord Jesus Christ and thus God was working in this way to insure that Simon came to Him and believe in Him in the right way and thus not causing any of those that regarded him to go astray with him afterwards.

    When Simon was seeing this baptism with the Holy Spirit occurring with the laying on of hands and wishing to purchase this power, Peter perceived something not right in him and warned him to repent or he would not be able to take part or have lot in this matter.

    Acts 8: 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. 24Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the LORD for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

    God wanted to save Simon the sorceror whom was of infamous influence in the region. This was why this background account was given of him.

    Acts 8 9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: 10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. 11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

    If one considers that Simon the sorceror was among them having been bewitched by him, then God would not have them confuse the baptism with the Holy Spirit as being something from Simon: thus the need for the laying on of hands to signify as happening not because of Simon being among them.

    Plus: it shows how even Simon was not right in coming to God and thus the need for him to repent from looking at signs and wonders in focussing on them when the gospel is about the Son, Jesus Christ.

    Romans 5:10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    2 Corinthians 5: 17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    So Simon's request to Peter to pray to the Lord for him on his behalf was Simon repenting of the vanity of his request to be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ. This would be the reconciliation that was necessary for Simon to believe in Jesus Christ just as it was the reconciliation for the people to believe in Jesus Christ with the laying on of hands to signify that the baptism with the Holy Spirit was not because of Simon being among them doing his thing, but it was because of them believing in Jesus Christ as those that represented Him layed hands on them to receive.

    So it was because of spiritual warfare that God worked in that way in saving the afflicted people within that region along with Simon.

    May God cause the increase in showing the error of ignoring the doctrines as stated in the letters to the churches for the false teachings that have been concocted out of lack of understanding the event in Acts.:godisgood::jesus:
     
  4. Enow

    Enow
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    Discerning Giving Heed To Spiritual Sensationalism

    Why do believers insist on sensationalism of having received the Spirit by signs and wonderswhen we are to receive Him by faith in Jesus Christ? It is because of seducing spirits that would mislead the elect if possible with signs and wonders; sensationalism to believe that there is another spirit to receive or that they need to receive the Holy Spirit by a sign.

    1 Corinthians 14: 21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

    Signs are not for those that believe, but to them that do not believe.

    It is an adulterous generation that seeks after a sign: those that already believe in Jesus Christ should not lose sight of Him in chasing after a sign. If they have done so: then they need to go to Jesus for help to return to their first love by shunning to receive any more of the Spirit when we are filled and keep their eyes on the Bridegroom in relating to God through Jesus Christ.

    That is the commandment of His invitation and in how we maintain that chaste relationship with God and that is through the Son: the Bridegroom so that we do not allow false spirits, let alone false prophets to mislead us.

    John 14: 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

    1 John 4: 1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

    2 Corinthians 13: 5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    1 Timothy 4: 1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    It is utter hypocrisey for believers to say that they believe the Holy Spirit is in them and yet asks for the Holy Spirit to come and fall on them again. Do not believe every spirit but discern them by what they are leading you to say and to do which is contrary to the Gospel of grace and not after Christ.

    2 Corinthians 11: 1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    So just because you receive another spirit at another time sensational-wise after salvation, it does not mean it is of God. Quite the contrary as the scriptures above testify. Keep your eyes on the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Rest in Him and His promise to you in how we are saved, by believing in Him.

    There is no other calling:

    Ephesians 4: 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    Nor is there any other drink to have of that One Spirit for we are filled and thus saved.

    1 Corinthians 12: 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    That is why Jesus promised this when we had come and believed in Him to prove that there is no more drink after we have been saved.

    John 6:35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

    That way we are being witnesses of the Son in preaching Him and nothing else in His name. That is what the Holy Spirit in us is doing as we would be led by Him to do the same.

    John 15:26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

    The Holy Spirit will not speak of himself so that He amy seek the glory of the Son: therefore, anyone speaking of the Holy Spirit to seek the glory of the Holy Spirit are not being led by the indwelling Holy Spirit to do that but instead are being led by the seducing spirit of error to seek after them.

    John 16:13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    This is the mind of Christ we are to have as the Holy Spirit in us wants us to have and that is to honour the Son in seeking His glory as it is His name which is above every other name.

    Philippians 2: 5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    John 5: 22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

    Considering how this is the standard of judgment by which the House of God will be judged by, we should take heed to His words les our house falls.

    Matthew 7: 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. :tonofbricks:

    And many houses are falling after these seducing spirits and not after Christ.

    The definition of antichrist means as applied in scriptures: "instead of Christ".

    So keep your eyes on Jesus and let no spirit or false teaching take your eyes off of Him in relating to God because the Bridegroom will be coming.:jesus:
     
  5. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    The Holy Spirit has always, always indwelt the elect in all ages permenantly (Rom. 8:9).

    The problem texts that you have presented have to do with a change of public visible administration in the kingdom in regard to the new house of God from the old house of God and its public administration.

    The new visible kingdom administration is accompanied by new scriptures (New Testament) and a new missionary field of endeavor (gentiles). The promise of the Father has many facets (apostolic ministry, credentials, etc.).

    The apostles and prophets were foundational in establishing this new visible kingdom administration. The new covenant was the charter of the new visible kingdom administration on earth.

    Both the Old and New Covenants had been in effect since Eden but the old covenant was publicly instituted by Moses with its house of God at Mount Sinai. The New Covenant was publicly instituted by Christ with its house of God (Mt. 16:18-19; 18:15-20; 28:19-20).
     
  6. billwald

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    And the objective evidence for the occurrence of this event is what?
     
  7. Dr. Walter

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    The "keys" of the kingdom were transferred from the past public administrator and their administration in the visible kingdom of God on earth (Mt. 16:19; 18:17-18; Mt. 21:43) to the new public administration.

    The book of Hebrews (Heb. 9:1) identifies both public administrations under two covenants each with ordinances and houses of God while acknowleging an "everlasting covenant" of redemption (Heb. 13:20).
     
  8. Deacon

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  9. Enow

    Enow
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    That is not true. Matthew 9:17 states that new wineskins was needed to hold the new wine, thus the necessity for believers to be a new creature in Christ Jesus. There would be no need to refer to what happens when new wine filled old wineskins if this permanent indwelling existed before.

    The fact that Judas Iscariot had received the Holy Spirit in Matthew 10th chapter and yet was prophesied to be lost and did become lost proved that this indwelling of the Holy Spirit was not permanent until Jesus's ascension when afterwards, those having received it on and since the Day of Pentecost that the indwelling Holy Spirit was permanent.

    There would be no need to go through all that contingency for this promise specifying permanent indwelling to come when they had already received the Holy Spirit earlier in Matthew 10th chapter and in John 20:22 again if it was indeed permanent eralier or had always been permanent.

    Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman at the well that spoke of how things will be different from what it was before as we can see the meaning of His name: Emmanuel as in "God is with us" declares that this promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit was not available before so that believers in Jesus Christ do not have to go to Jerusalem nor to the mountains to worship God for they shall be able to worship God anywhere in Spirit and in truth. John 4:19-24

    I do not have a problem with those texts, thanks to Jesus Christ. The religious may have this problem and why they need to heed His invitation.

    Matthew 11:25-30 John 6:28-29

    Jesus sent the disciples in Matthew 10th chapter to the House of Isreal, specifying not to go to the Gentiles at all yet. It was when the Jews had rejected the chief cornerstone that the despensation of the Gospel went to the Gentiles. That was why Peter had to have that vision of that sheet coming down from Heaven with the clean unclean animals in it: Peter was still under that charge to preach to the House of Israel. It was his primary focus. God had to inform Him that He was now expounding on that previous order to include the Gentiles since He was ministering to save them as well.

    Galatians 2: 7But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)

    John the Baptist's paving the way in the wilderness for the Lord was meant for the Jews to receive the Good News but of course, as propheised, they did not.

    But God has not cast off Israel. The times of the Gentiles will cme to an end because of the falling away from the faith by which judgment will fall on the House of God at the pre tribulational rapture event by which times afterwards, the choosing of the 144,000 witnesses will bring the despensation of the Gospel of grace back to the Jews.

    The Old Covenant as everlasting as it was meant to be, faded away because the other party of that covenant did not continued within, therefore was a better Covenant was instituted over the old. Man had their chance at the deeds of the law to make themsleves His and they failed: Now it's His turn.

    Hebrews 8:6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises..... 13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

    The fact that Christ had to become the Firstfruit was the only way anybody was going to get into Heaven.

    John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    Jesus referring to Abarham's bosom as being beneathe the earth and yet across a huge unpassable chasm from where hell was: goes to show what prison that Jesus descended to in order to lead the captivity captive out.

    1 Peter 3:18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    The answer of a good consience is to believe in Jesus Christ.

    Romans 15: 20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    The Old Covenant is gone. Poof. God is not glorified at all in the Old Covenant but in the New Covenant in His Son. :jesus:

    1 Corinthians 1: 26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

    The reason why the just shall live by faith seems ridiculous to the religious men of the world is because just trusting Jesus Christ as the Saviour to having saved the believers and just trusting Jesus Christ as the Good Shepherd in how we live the christian life by His words to guide us is nonsense to the religious men of the world. The religious require something on the part of man to show sincerity or merit or will of the flesh like promises, vows, and commitments of men where men can glory in having kept or finished but no flesh shall glory in His Presence: not even those that boast of keeping the Ten Commandments:

    John 7:18-19

    The commandments we keep is not of the flesh but by trusting Jesus to enable us to follow Him in keeping the faith and loving others as He loved us. So as much as believers are looking at other believers to show how serious they are: it is not about us or them: it is about knowing how serious God is to us in having made us His and willing to help us live as His to trust Him.

    Christianity is not a religion but a relationship based on trusting Him at His Word and that is why the just shall live by faith. :jesus::love2:

    If there was no significance to Jesus Christ as giving the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit for believing in Him for our salvation, then He would not be the only way to get to Heaven, but He is the only way, and scriptures testifies that the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit in relation to Jesus Christ means you are saved: bought with a price and sealed as His like new wineskin filled with new wine. That is the only way you and I can bear witness of the Son and why He is distinctive as the Good News to man because the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit was not given before... nor could it ever be given before until He had been crucified, raised from the dead, and had ascended to be at the right hand of God for us to prepare a place in bringing us Home as the Bridegroom does for the bride.

    But not every believer will be ready for the Marriage Supper, and that is why there is a call to depart from iniquity by looking to the author and finisher of our faith to lay aside every weight and sin that so easily besets us so we can be ready to go Hebrews 11:1-2. It is not for salvation, but to be found abiding in Him to receive the first inheritance as a vessel unto honour in God's House which is that eternal glory that comes with our salvation. 2 Timothy 2:10-26
     
  10. Enow

    Enow
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    I understand. I trust God to provide the meat for those that fear Him.

    Psalm 111: 4He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: the LORD is gracious and full of compassion. 5He hath given meat unto them that fear him: he will ever be mindful of his covenant.

    Thanks, Rob.:thumbs:

    No offense, but I would rather stick with what I know and is reliable: the scriptures in the King James Bible, and Jesus Christ as My Saviour and as My Good Shepherd as wisdom can only come from the Lord in using the meat of His words to discern good and evil as well as enable me to keep the faith which is the good fight. :jesus::love2:

    1 John 2: 18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.:wavey:
     
  11. billwald

    billwald
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    >That is not true. Matthew 9:17 states that new wineskins was needed to hold the new wine, thus the necessity for believers to be a new creature in Christ Jesus. There would be no need to refer to what happens when new wine filled old wineskins if this permanent indwelling existed before.

    OK, then God changed the rules. I thought that (most of you believe) God never changes.
     
  12. Dr. Walter

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    Matthew 9:15-17 has nothing to do with this issue. Take a better look at the context and you will see it has nothing to do with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit but is used to illustrate the statement made by Christ in verse 14. Christ is illustrating the foolishness of fasting when the Savior is with them. It is as redundant as the children of the bride chamber mourning when the Bridegroom is with them or as redundant as putting new wine in old wine skins that have already been stretched.

    Your ignorant of the basic priniciples of gospel salvation. The Holy Spirit was given to many in the Old Testament who were not children of God. Jesus makes it clear in John 6:64-65, 70 that Judas was never a true believer. Matthew 7:22 makes it clear that miraculous power is not evidence of true salvation as such were never known by Christ to be his (Mt. 7:23). Miracle power produced by the Spirit of God is not evidence of salvation as even in the Old Testament the Spirit of God came upon lost men to accomplish things.

    Your confusing individual personal indwelling with plural corporate indwelling as the new house of God. Note the plural "you" is used in these cases and the new house of God is a corporate indwelling as an institution (e.g. 1 Cor. 3:9, 16; 12:27; etc.). Take note of the metaphors used of the congregation located at Corinth (building, house, body, etc.) consisting as the new "house of God" (1 Tim. 3:15) or indwelling by the Spirit as a divine institution.

    Not so! He was called "Emmanuel" in the Old Testament as well. Going to Jerusalem or to a specific geographical location is no more different than a congregation geographically located at Corinth or Denver Colorado. There is a difference between PUBLIC INSTITUTIONAL WORSHIP and private personal worship.

    You are attempting to cover too much material and you are abusing what you are attempting to use - taking things clearly out of context. Anyone can defend anything by your method of mass input. Take one aspect and deal with it.
     
  13. JML CASSIAN

    JML CASSIAN
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    The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is with all who are Born Again (1 Cor 12:13) and is NOT experienced and it is permanent. It is not accompanied by signs, wonders, or any of the other sensational events people think are important.

    On the other hand, the filling of the Spirit one does experience, it is subjective, and it can come and go depending on one's walk with Christ. That's my understanding of it.
     
  14. Dr. Walter

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    Your observation is correct although your proof text is incorrect ("I Cor. 12:13). The New birth was experienced prior to Pentecost (Jn. 3:3-5) and was a common Old Testament phenomena referred to as circumcision of the heart. If you will study Romans 8:7-9 you will see that Paul separates all mankind into only two classifications - those "in the flesh" (Rom. 8:7-8) and those "in the Spirit" (Rom. 8:9) and all who are "in the Spirit" are indwelt by the Spirit whether they existed previous to or after Pentecost. Those who are not indwelt by the Spirit of Christ are "none of his"

    Rom. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
     
  15. JML CASSIAN

    JML CASSIAN
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    In the OT the indwelling, as far as I can tell, applied only to prophets, priests or kings, and was temporary.
    1 Cor 12:13 shows that ALL Christians without exception are indwelt by the Spirit and that is how they are made members of the Body of Christ.

    I wasn't denying that the Holy Spirit was present in the OT or that indwelling did not occur, because he was, and it did.
     
  16. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    I understand your position perfectly. I disagree with it. I believe you are confusing the baptism in the Spirit with regeneration. 1 Corinthians 12:13 if interpreted to the immediate context of the epistle it is found in will not support your application. In context it is simply the summary of what Paul propounded in detail in 1 Corinthians 1-3:16. The contextual problem was division over the baptism administrator and thus denominational divisions occurred within the congregational body at Corinth. Each group followed a different leader. Paul's solution was to show the supremacy of the gospel to baptism (1 Cor. 1:14-31); to show the supremacy of the Holy Spirit in the preaching of the gospel to the preacher (1 Cor. 2) and to demonstrate that their baptismal administrators were all working together UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF THE HOLY SPIRIT in building the congregation at Corinth as the temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 3:4-16).

    The same kind of division existed over spiritual gifts whereby some claimed supremacy over other members in the congregation at Corinth (1 Cor. 12:1) causing similar divisions in the congregational body at Corinth. Paul reminds them in their lost religious condition they were all being LED by demonic spirits in their worship (1 Cor. 12:2) but "by" (under the leadership of) the Spirit of God they could not be led to say or do anything that dishonored Christ and division in the congregational body dishonors Christ (1 Cor. 1:11-14). Those under the leadership of the Spirit are united in their practical behavior and use of spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 12:3-11). Under the leadership of one Spirit they had all been water baptized into the membership of the congregational body of Christ and made to be partakers or benefactors of the Spirit's work in the congregational body (1 Cor. 12:12-27). The kind of body under consideration is one like unto the physical human body (1 Cor. 12:11) wherein ALL members can rejoice or sorrow with "ONE" member and wherein it is possible not to have division (1 Cor. 12:25-26) consisting of particular individual members making one body at Corinth (1 Cor. 12:27).
     
  17. JML CASSIAN

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    I'm not sure I follow you, but Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a fruit of regeneration, and 1 Cor 12:13 is pretty straight-forward. That baptism is what includes you in the Body of Christ. Baptism in the Holy Spirit began at Pentecost, so it was not present in the OT, even though indwelling, with restrictions was present.

    If I'm misunderstanding you, let me know. Indwelling, is of course, distinct from regeneration.

    I see what I did--I think. When quoting 1 Cor 12:13 I was mixing up indwelling with Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit permanently indwells the believer. In the OT the indwelling was not permanent.
     
    #17 JML CASSIAN, Apr 30, 2011
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  18. Dr. Walter

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    Romans 8:7-9 provides only two options. Either you are "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" and it is impossible to be "in the Spirit" without the Spirit indwelling you. That is Paul's point. Those "in the flesh" are the unregenerate whereas those "in the spirit" are the regenerate.

    1 Corinthians 12:13 refers to the local congregational body (v. 27) and water baptism. The Holy Spirit builds visible congregational bodies of Christ through the use of human instrumentality (1 Cor. 3:5-16). The material used to build such congregational bodies are baptized believers. The congregational body is a "building", "husbandry" and "temple" (1 Cor. 3:9; 16).
     
  19. JML CASSIAN

    JML CASSIAN
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    Absolutely, being "in the Spirit," means you are also indwelt. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit took place at Pentecost. The church was born at that time. We partake of the benefits of that baptism when we are Born Again. We become members of the Body of Christ.

    So you are disagreeing with John Walvoord? I always understood 1 Cor 12:13 and referring to baptism of the Holy Spirit, as he states.

     
    #19 JML CASSIAN, Apr 30, 2011
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  20. Dr. Walter

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    Walvoord's book on the Holy Spirit states that regeneration and all the blessings of redemption are insepabable from the baptism in the Spirit as the baptism in the Spirit places a person "in Christ" or spiritual union with Christ. In essence, this is a denial of any personal and practical redemption to pre-Pentecost saints as according to his definition they were spiritually OUTSIDE any union with Christ and there is no salvation OUTSIDE of Christ.

    However, Paul tells us that the all the elect were chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4). Paul claims that Abraham, pre-Mosaic person is the example of justification by faith (Rom. 4:11) and gospel conversion (Gal. 3:6-7).

    My position is that there has been one way of salvation before (Jn. 4:16; Mt. 7:13-14) as well as after the cross (Acts 4:12). There has been one gospel before and after the cross (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2; Acts 26:22-23). Regeneration, indwelling and remission of sins, indwelling of the Holy Spirit have absolutely nothing to do with INDIVIDUAL salvation but has to do with INSTITUTIONAL and COPORATE service in connection with the "house of God."

    Spiritual union with Christ has nothing to do with the baptism in the Spirit but with regeneration and indwelling which have been the same since the garden of Eden.
     

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