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The Promises to Abraham – the Promise of the Land

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by TrevorL, Jan 28, 2012.

  1. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again The Biblicist and Moriah,

    I have nothing to add to my original explanation on Paul and Jesus discussions with the Sadducees. I appreciate how you view this, but I cannot accept your view. I believe in the resurrection alone. My only correction to my previous post I stated “God does need our minds and thoughts in the form of an immortal soul in order to resurrect us after death, because there is no limit to his understanding and knowledge and there is no limit to his power.” But this should have read: “God does not need our minds and thoughts in the form of an immortal soul in order to resurrect us after death, because there is no limit to his understanding and knowledge and there is no limit to his power.
    Are you suggesting that every time a man dies Jesus comes back and takes them to be with him? I believe it is talking of the second coming of Jesus to establish his kingdom upon the earth, and then the faithful will fully become part of his spiritual house.

    Concerning 2 Timothy 4:18 this is not concerning Paul going to heaven at death. Consider the context which is talking concerning the future kingdom when Jesus returns to establish his kingdom upon earth:
    2 Timothy 4:1,8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  2. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    I did not say anything about God needing to be reminded of us before He resurrects us.
    I believe Jesus will come for all His when they die. I have shown you with scripture that Jesus came to Stephen when he died, and I have shown you scripture of Paul’s confidence in Jesus coming for him to take him to Jesus’ heavenly kingdom.
    There is a lot that is going to happen before there is a heavenly kingdom on earth! You think Paul went from talking about being rescued on earth from every evil attack then straight to Jesus bringing him to the New Jerusalem on the New Earth. What about all that is going to happen before the New Jerusalem on the New Earth? If Paul was not talking about going to heaven in his spirit after he died, then why did he not talk about the resurrection first before the New Jerusalem on the New Earth? What about the Great White Throne judgment before the heavenly kingdom on the New Earth? If Paul were talking about the New Jerusalem on the New Earth, then Paul would have spoke of the resurrection first. Paul could have said The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will raise me safely at the resurrection. The resurrection is going to happen before the heavenly kingdom is brought to the New Earth!

    2 Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
     
    #42 Moriah, Feb 12, 2012
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  3. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    Trevor,

    I am still waiting for you to reply to this.
     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Trevor,

    You could not respond to the evidence I gave you right from the context, the very text you purposely omitted which condemns your theory. You again simply ignored the grammar and the directly theological condemnation of the Saducees denial of the immortal soul.

    Jospheus, a prominent Jew, a Jewish historian, spells out the specific differences between the Pharisees and Saducees and explictly and clearly states they denied the eternal existence of the soul, because they denied the existence of any created spirit whether angel or man apart from a material form. This is exactly what Luke stated and why Paul sided with the Pharisees and why Christ sided with the Pharisees. Remember the Pharisees commended Christ immediately after his response to the Saduccees.

    What you don't understand, even though both Biblical and non-Biblical Jews make it very clear is that the Sadducees reject the resurrection BECAUSE THEY REJECT THE EXISTENCE OF ANY KIND OF CREATED SPIRITUAL EXISTENCE OUTSIDE OF A MATERIAL BODY. That is why they reject angels. That is why they reject the resurrection of humans because they believe the immatieral human nature was anihilated at physical death.

    The evidence is clear and sufficient but you simply choose to reject the evidence.

    The very reason that Jesus said the one believing in him shall "never die" is because he is adddressing the CONSCIOUS IMMATERIAL SPIRIT dwelling in their bodies. When they believe in Christ they are regenerated and the Holy Spirit comes to indwell them in SPIRITUAL UNION not physical union. What is in SPIRITUAL UNION with God is what never "dies" or is never SEPARATED FROM GOD at the physical death.

    So the very texts you imagine help your cause are the very texts that condemn your theory as totally and irrefutably false.
     
  5. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again Moriah and The Biblicist,

    You misunderstood what I am saying. I was attempting to respond to the following statement by The Biblicist:
    I was not sure whether he believed the absolute necessity for an immortal soul to ensure resurrection, or only attributed this concept to the Sadducees. Many faithful have returned to the dust even up to 5000 –6000 years ago, and my belief there is no conscious thought in that time, and no other existence or residue apart from the dust, but this does not limit God in raising them from the dead in the resurrection. Raising Jesus after three days is in itself a wonderful miracle, and if God can do this, then there is the assurance he can raise all those whom he desires to be in his kingdom and inherit the promise of the land to Abraham.

    I am happy with the connection between 2 Timothy 4:1, 8 and 4:18 and to me this is a good reference to define the scriptural use of the term heavenly kingdom. This shows that “heavenly kingdom” is the future kingdom of God on earth; it is a kingdom of heaven, not in heaven. I would be interested in how you define the following:
    Matthew 5:3,5 (KJV): 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
    I believe that these are one and the same, the kingdom of heaven is when the poor in spirit and meek inherit the earth. This is almost like Hebrew poetic parallelism.

    I am interested in Stephen’s vision of Jesus at the right hand of God. Do you believe that he literally saw Jesus, or was it a vision? I have been looking at Isaiah 2 and 6, both of which start with visions. Are these future, are they literal, are they symbolic, are they real? I know we have stated differences on Isaiah 2, and down the track and possibly relevant to Stephen’s vision, we could discuss Isaiah 6, and Isaiah’s interaction with the vision. I find Isaiah 6 one of the most interesting visions in the entire Bible, oft quoted and alluded to, and full of relevance for Isaiah’s time, for Jesus’ time, and for our times. Same with Stephen, did Jesus actually come back to him then and there, or was it a vision of the future return of Christ to raise him from the dead? I accept the latter. Stephen’s next waking moment will be in the presence of our Lord when he returns to establish his Kingdom upon earth. This would have been a great comfort to sustain Stephen in his dying moments. Jesus will certainly come for him and receive him unto himself, so that where he is, Stephen will be also. (I know you suggest that this has happened already).

    I could have quoted all that you said here, but we differ. Perhaps I could ask what you think the real sequence is. I believe that all mankind including the faithful die and return to the dust. At the return of Jesus, he raises the dead, then they are judged, and those found faithful inherit immortal life and inherit the earth (the land promise of Genesis 13:14-15) with Abraham and Jesus. Those unfaithful will be judged, rejected and suffer the second death and perish by returning to the dust.

    Concerning your earlier quotation of John 8:48-59 (with emphasis on some phrases) in Post #40, you prompt:
    I am not sure this covers all that you want because when you quote scripture, even with emphasis, I simply read it and agree with it. My simple response to my guess at what you are suggesting about not dying is:
    Colossians 3:1-4 (KJV): 1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
    Despite the words of Jesus, in actual fact man dies. For example Jesus says of Lazarus:
    John 11:11-14 (KJV): 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

    I am interested why you highlight the above. I do not think that this is teaching Abraham had an immortal soul. I believe that it speaks of Abraham’s faith in looking forward to the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. This was made clearer to him by the typical events associated with the sacrifice of Isaac in Genesis 22.
    Genesis 22:14 (KJV): And Abraham called the name of that place Yahweh-jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

    I believe that Jesus is countering their lack of belief in the resurrection. I do not believe in immortal souls but I believe in angels and that they are spirit beings. I believe that we will become spirit beings when we are changed from our natural bodies into spiritual bodies at the resurrection 1 Corinthians 15. So if Paul and Jesus are teaching the resurrection and angels and spirits then I agree with them. I do not believe they are teaching immortal souls. If you have access to an electronic Bible and search facility, put in the phrase “immortal soul” – result: 0. Put in the word “soul” and start to appreciate the Bible definition of a soul. Two examples:
    Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
    Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV): Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  6. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    I see what you are saying, but it would not make sense that Jesus would need to make up a concept to assure the Sadducees with.
    Why would they need to be alive to God for Him to raise them one day? Why would you think that an excuse of such would even be considered? God IS God of the living, not the dead. With your beliefs, you then claim God is the God of a multitude of dead people, people who have been dead for thousands upon thousands of years. Not only that, you think Jesus was making up a concept to help the Sadducee understand!
    I have shown you scripture that we receive the kingdom of heaven now while we live in a physical body here on earth; I have shown you scripture that we keep this same kingdom of heaven after we die a physical death; I have shown we keep this same kingdom of heaven after we are resurrected with new bodies for the New Earth with the New Heavenly Kingdom come down from Heaven.

    John 4:14 but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

    Do you not understand what "welling up to eternal life" means? You want us to believe that this welling up to eternal life will come crashing down to the earth one day.

    John 5:24-25 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

    Did you read here how Jesus says "he has crossed over from death to life"? You want us to believe that we cross over from death to life then back to death again at our physical death! What you are teaching is nonsense, unspiritural nonsense.

    John 6:27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

    Jesus says to work for food that ENDURES TO eternal life. We do not work for food that endures to death in the ground then later an eternal life. You do not fully understand what 'endures to' means.

    That is strange and bizarre teaching, to say that Stephen spoke to Jesus in Stephen's real time but it was really the future in Jesus' time. In addition, you have a problem with the word ‘vision.’ The word ‘vision’ does not automatically mean something of the future! You are forcing scripture to say what it does not say.
    I know you think that. Those beliefs in sequence are not so terribly strange, except that you leave out some truths. You live out everything spiritual. You also leave out the fact that heaven and earth will pass away, and a new heaven and new earth will appear. You also leave out the lake of fire. That should bother you to leave out so much truth. You live out everything spiritual.
    Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping, and this sleeping is about his physical body. Jesus saying that Lazarus was sleeping is because that is what the body is doing, since Jesus will wake up our bodies one day. How you get that that takes away all that is spiritual is unfounded.
    Again, you leave out all that is spiritual. You give all your thoughts to earthly land. I say so what about earthly land. Only those who are worldly would care about earthly land and not see what is spiritual.


    There is no such thing as an 'immortal soul'. If you want to debate someone, try remembering what they said to you. I will repeat what I said to you before…The soul is a physical body with a spirit in it. When the spirit leaves the body, then it is no longer a soul, it is a dead body.
     
    #46 Moriah, Feb 14, 2012
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  7. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    Trevor,

    Explain how you think we will die like the forefathers who ate manna, even though Jesus says but he who feeds on the bread will live forever.

    John 6:53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."
     
    #47 Moriah, Feb 14, 2012
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  8. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    The Physical Land promises to Abraham have been fulfilled by God already, that promise is over with. Neh 9:7-8

    7Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;

    8And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:

    There is yet a Spiritual Fulfillment at the Second Coming of Christ and the Glorification of all the Church, Abraham's Spiritual Seed through Christ Gal 3:29

    29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. What Promise ?

    This One Gen 17:8

    8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
     
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You misunderstood my words which you quote here. I am saying that the Sadducees denied the FUTURE resurrection of the body because they denied any CONTINUATION of your being for the body to be reunited with. You are responding to my words as though I was speaking from God's point of view rather than the Saducees point of view.




    If you look at my words there is not one single mention of God's concept! I was talking about the Saduccean concept which Jospehus spells out so explicitly clear it would be impossible to miss what he is saying. He says that the Sadducees denied the continuing existence of the human soul beyond physical death. They denied the existence of angels because they denied any created spirit can exist apart from a material body.

    Luke's commentary coupled with the complete affirmation of Luke's commentaray by Josepheus proves you are wrong! Matthew 22:32 proves you are wrong:

    I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

    The buried decayed bodies of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is referred to by Christ as "dead." However, Christ says that God "IS" presently not the God of the "dead" but PRESENTLY the God of the "living" in regard to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob! He is asserting that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still "LIVING" while their "dead" bodies are presently in the tomb. That grammatical fact repudiates your whole position.

    You respond by saying Jesus is talking about the resurrection! However, Jesus uses the PRESENT TENSE not the future tense and claims Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are PRESENTLY - "LIVING" while he is disclaiming He is PRESENTLY the God of their "dead" bodies in the grave. How much clearer can it be??????
     
  10. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Lets first look at the promises made to Abraham, who is the representative head of both physical and spiritual seed of Israel the Father of all who believe per Rom 4:16-17

    16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, [Believing Israel]

    17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

    Now as we observe these promises to Abraham it is very important to see that there are two types of promises made to Abraham, those that included Him in the promise and those that did not include him.

    Now lets look at one of the covenant promises to Him but did not include him !

    Gen 12:6-7


    6And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.

    7And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

    This is a promise to give Abraham's physical seed the land of canaan..But this promise was not given to Abraham personally and it was not stated in this promise how long the physical seed of Abram would have this land..

    The promise of Abraham's physical seed receiving land without Him appears again in Gen 15:18-21

    18In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

    19The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,

    20And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,

    21And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

    And again its mentioned by Abraham Gen 24:7


    7The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence.

    And again, in these references it never speaks of Abraham being made a promise to have this land, but His seed, physical descendants, and not once is it said by God for how long they would have this physical land of canaan...

    Now another covenant promise was made to Abraham in scripture which did include Him in the promise Gen 12:1-3

    1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

    2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

    3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    Gen 13:15-17

    15For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

    16And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

    17Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

    Notice this promise God specifically says to Abram that He would give it personally to Abraham, and so the words to thee is used..

    For this promise is to both Abraham and His seed both and the possession of this land is eternal..

    This covenant promise is spoken again in Gen 17:5-8

    5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

    6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

    7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

    8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

    For this is also confirmed to Isaac and Jacob Gen 26:1-5

    1And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.

    2And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

    3Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

    4And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

    5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    Gen 28:12-15

    12And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

    13And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

    14And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

    15And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

    And so thats why the writer of Hebrews writes that Isaac and Jacob were heirs together of the same promise Heb 11:8-10

    8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

    9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

    10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

    And this land, inheritance which they sought as a result of the promise was heavenly:

    Heb 11:13-16

    13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

    15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

    16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

    This land or country they sought was not a physical plot of land in the middle east, but a heavenly hope, for as a result of this promise they considered themselves strangers and pilgrims of this earth, because their land promise, their country promise was heavenly..

    BTW, it is this heavenly hope of the Fathers that Paul meant here in Acts 26:6-8


    6And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers:

    7Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

    8Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

    Amen, the Land, the Country thast the True Fathers hoped for, was only to be attained through the resurrection of the dead, a heavenly hope, the same peter writes about 1 Pet 1:3-4

    3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

    This is the same promise that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had from those promises made them personally in genesis..
     
  11. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again Moriah, The Biblicist and savedbymercy,

    I have come online for a short time and noticed that I have five replies waiting for me, Posts 46-50. You all seem to be getting a bit frustrated with me, and there is some confusion and repetitiveness. I will consider these posts over the next few days and try to answer at least some of it. Before I came online I collected the following verses that teach the mortality of man, that is all of the man, not only his body. There is hope, in that those who receive the gospel are in this process receiving the word of God that lives and abides for ever. I believe that this is the only part of us that lives for ever. But even this is only in prospect, because when we die this ceases to exist, but God remembers those who have absorbed from without this word, and Jesus will raise them up when he returns and give them everlasting life.

    I will add these verses with some emphasis and only minor comment:
    Genesis 2:16-17 (KJV): 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
    If they sinned they would die. It does not say if they sinned their body would die, but their immortal spirit or immortal soul would continue to live for ever.

    Genesis 3:1-5 (KJV): 1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
    The serpent denied God’s sentence of death and his is similar to all those who believe in the immortality of the soul or spirit after death.

    Genesis 3:14-15 (KJV): 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
    There is hope given here that the seed of the woman will overcome all the effects that were introduced by the serpent and his seed.

    Genesis 3:17-19 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
    Again it clearly states that man would die and return to the dust. It does not say their body would die, but their immortal spirit or immortal soul would continue to live for ever.

    Genesis 3:22-24 (KJV): 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
    This is very specific. The man was cast out so that he would not live for ever. It is against the character and wisdom and justice of God that sinners should be immortal.
    Psalm 78:36-39 (KJV): 36 Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues. 37 For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant. 38 But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. 39 For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.
    This is typical of many OT passages that build on the idea of the mortality of man.

    Isaiah 40:3-8 (KJV): 3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. 6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: 7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. 8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
    This represents some aspects of the preaching of John the Baptist. An important aspect is the mortality of all flesh, and only the word of God abides for ever.

    1 Peter 1:23-25 (KJV): 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
    We receive this word when we believe the gospel and allow that word to transform our lives.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  12. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again Moriah,

    I appreciate your two replies, Posts #46 and #47, but I am not willing to repeat much of what I have said already. I would give a similar response to the additional scripture that you quote.

    I agree the word vision is not always future. If we look at the prophecy of Isaiah, the whole book is described as:
    Isaiah 1:1 (KJV): The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
    But the future events of Isaiah 2, which I would consider as a vision, are introduced as:
    Isaiah 2:1 (KJV): The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
    But in each case it states that he saw these things.

    In Isaiah 6 we simply have “Isaiah saw”
    Isaiah 6:1 (KJV): In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
    The things depicted in Isaiah 6 I would still like to describe as a vision, even though Isaiah interacts with what he saw. My understanding of Isaiah 6 is that it depicts some things present, some things to be fulfilled in the time of Christ’s first advent, and some things relating to the establishment of the kingdom. This could give us a clue to what Stephen saw when he was about to be stoned.

    I have been fully aware that you do not believe in an immortal soul. Part of the problem arose when I used one post to reply to both you and The Biblicist. For this reason I have still used only one post, but I have addressed The Biblicist in the next portion of this post, and savedbymercy towards the end. Feel free to respond to any portion of my posts, but please note that sometimes I had The Biblicist in mind.

    Greetings again The Biblicist,

    I appreciate your reply, Posts #49. I have given my explanation of how I view Jesus’ and Paul’s encounter with the Sadducees. I appreciate how you interpret this, but I maintain that Jesus and Paul were not in any way endorsing the Pharisee’s concept that man has an immortal soul or spirit after death, but Jesus and Paul were only teaching the resurrection of the dead in the future. I explained why I consider why Jesus uses the present tense including quoting Romans 4:17, even though you disagree with my conclusion and the application of this scripture.

    Greetings again savedbymercy,

    I appreciate your two replies, Posts #48 and #50. Quoting all of Post #48 and part of Post #50:
    I agree the land promise is eternal and heavenly, but the term heavenly represents of heaven, by heaven, under a heavenly constitution, not in heaven. It is the kingdom of God on earth when Jesus returns to set up his kingdom. Thus the land promise to Abraham is literal. Abraham and his seed Christ are to inherit the land for ever Matthew 5:3,5, Genesis 13:14-15, Galatians 3:26-29, Romans 4:13, Daniel 2:44, Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Ezekiel 38-39, Acts 3:19-21, Psalm 72 and many other literal prophecies, too numerous to list.

    I draw your attention to Micah 4:1-8 and Ezekiel 38-39 which both speak of the conversion of Israel at the second coming of Jesus. I believe that only then will the element of the promise to Abraham in Genesis 12:2I will make of thee a strong nation” be fulfilled. Ezekiel 38 describes the situation in the land today, depicting the return of the Jews to the land in unbelief of Jesus as the Messiah. The events of Ezekiel 38 will soon occur, and will bring about the conversion of natural Israel, so that they will become the first dominion of the kingdom of God Micah 4:6-8.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The present tense is not your only problem. Your problem is the term that Jesus used in the present tense - "living" in contrast to the term of denial "dead."

    It does not take a rocket scientist that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are "dead" in regard their physical remains in the tombs. Jesus is explicitly denying that God is the God of the "dead" but of the "living" in regard to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and there is nothing living in their tombs.

    Again, the Saduccess rejected the resurrection because they rejected any existing created spirit outside or apart form a material body.
     
  14. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again The Biblicist,

    My only comment on your response is that you believe the same philosophy as the serpent conjectured to Eve in the following:
    Genesis 3:1-5 (KJV): 1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
    The serpent in effect denied God’s sentence of death and this is similar to all those who believe in the immortality of the soul or spirit after death.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Your diversion from the facts of the text does not help you at all. Satan lied and they did die spiritually on the very day they ate and they eventually died physically. However, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are "justified" children of God according to Paul (Rom. 4:1-11) rather than spiritually dead children of Satan. They are believers in Christ, and Abraham was a believer in Christ as Christ himself verifies in John 8:57-58 and Paul verifies in Galatians 3:6-8, 17 and Jesus says that the one believing in him shall "never die, believeth thou this." You apparently don't believe that, but you take the position of the Sadducees who believe that at physical death there is complete cessation of existence. This is precisely what Jesus repudiates by the present tense "LIVING" as opposed to "dead". Hence, you argument from Genesis is calling Christ a liar as Christ denies that God is the God of the "dead" but of the "living" and it is directly applied to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.



    Therefore, you argument is baseless and moot!
     
  16. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Our Bible Class is presently looking at Isaiah under a senior expositor. He dealt with Isaiah 1 a few weeks ago, and next Wednesday will consider Isaiah 2. I have been preparing for these classes, as Isaiah is one of my favourite Bible books. I am interested if anyone has had a close look at Isaiah ch.2-6 and would like to comment. Looking at a few aspects of Isaiah, some of these seem relevant to our discussion in this thread.

    Isaiah 1 is a general call to genuine repentance, stripping away the pretence and outward show of religion. The message of Isaiah 1 would especially be applicable to Uzziah’s reign, but on a personal level it applied to all four reigns, and is very searching for every era and every individual. Thompson in his Land and the Book succinctly illustrates the opening verses of Isaiah, when he describes the return of the cattle and donkeys to their respective stalls.

    I believe that Isaiah 2-6 covers the period of Uzziah’s reign and that Isaiah 2-5 are given before Isaiah’s specific call and commission in Isaiah 6. Isaiah 2 is set in contrast to Uzziah’s reign, words that Uzziah and the nation did not heed. 2 Chronicles 26 describes how Uzziah became strong, especially under the guidance of Zechariah an earlier prophet, and how he also armed the nation militarily. But when he was strong he was lifted up in pride and tried to usurp the role of the high priest and was stricken with leprosy. Isaiah 2 shows a future kingdom, where Israel and the nations disarm and are drawn to worship in Jerusalem when Christ is enthroned. In order to achieve this, the pride of man has to be humbled, and this will be achieved in part by an earthquake.

    It is interesting that these events were partially fulfilled in Isaiah’s time, when Uzziah was humbled and there was a severe earthquake in his time. This is set as a pattern, also mentioned in Ezekiel 38 and Zechariah 14, when Israel and the nations will be humbled, and a great earthquake will occur before the establishment of the kingdom and the Temple of the Age to Come.

    Today we see America and Russia trusting in their strength and pride and armed similar to Uzziah. In the Middle East, Israel is also armed and trusts in its ability to defend itself, rather than trusting in God. Isaiah 3 speaks against the whole structure of society in Uzziah’s day, showing that they were ready for judgement. Our world with all its empty religion, its pride, its armaments, its corruption in every strata of society is also ready for judgement and is to be replaced by the kingdom of God.

    What a contrast is the future kingdom of God with the present kingdoms of men. As the American election circus travels from state to state, with each presidential hopeful grandstanding how important and successful he would be in running the country and the world. And on the other side of the world the Russian presidential candidate trying to impress as a strong man. Both these world powers have had a minor dress rehearsal in the conflict over Georgia, hinting at the roles to be assumed soon in Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11:40-45, when the king of the north sweeps into the Holy Land.

    Compare the man of sorrows as he entered Jerusalem to bear the sins of the world:
    Zechariah 9:9-11 (KJV): 9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. 10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth. 11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

    The counsel at the end of Isaiah 2 is perhaps relevant to some aspects of the discussion in this thread.
    Isaiah 2:20-22 (KJV): 20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; 21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. 22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
    Is there any hint here of the importance of man, and any hint that as soon as his breath is snuffed out that his immortal soul or spirit goes into the holy place, even heaven itself.

    Surely this must be set against Uzziah’s pride and usurpation, when he tried to enter the Most Holy Place. Only the High Priest was allowed, and that only once a year with special preparation, typifying that only the Lord Jesus Christ is worthy to enter the Most Holy. To claim that all and sundry could enter heaven at death, and even before Jesus ascended to the Father, does not agree with what happened to Uzziah. Also contrast the humility of Isaiah when he had a vision of Jesus seated in the future Most Holy upon the earth in Isaiah 6, refer John 12:39-41.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #56 TrevorL, Feb 17, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2012
  17. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again The Biblicist,
    The major difference between my belief and the Sadducees is that I believe in the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  18. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    Trevor,

    Do you believe Jesus died for all, even those who died for thousands of years before he came, correct?

    Do you also believe that the only sin that could condemn us is rejection of Christ, yes or no? If you say yes, then tell me, do you know that at the resurrection the righteous will be raised to eternal life, and the wicked to eternal punishment? Matthew 25:46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

    Therefore, if the righteous will be raised to eternal life, then they must already have known about Jesus! So, with your beliefs, how did those who have been dead for years, centuries, and longer, how can they be raised to righteousness? In addition, there are people, who never heard about Jesus, so how can the people have rejected him? How can they be raised to eternal punishment if they never had the chance to reject him?
     
  19. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    The historian Edward Gibbon in the “*Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire*” states that the early belief in the Millenium was gradually replaced in the following:
    A major reason why this shift occurred was the change from a belief in the mortality of man and the resurrection at the return of Christ when he was to establish the kingdom, to a belief in Greek philosophy that taught the pagan concept of immortal souls and going to heaven at death.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  20. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    I do not like to bother debating with people who call themselves Christian, but do not believe the Bible is accurate. If I understand you correctly, you believe the Bible is corrupt with Pagan beliefs, is that what you are saying.
     
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