The Prophet Daniel and the Apostle John: The Two Witnesses?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by AresMan, Sep 14, 2006.

  1. AresMan

    AresMan
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    I don't propose to know dogmatically who either of the two witnesses will be during the tribulation. I have heard aguments for several options:

    1. Enoch and Elijah: because of an interpretation of Hebrews 9:27
    It is reasoned that since Enoch and Elijah were the only two recorded in Scripture who apparently did not die but were taken straight to heaven bodily, according to the rule of Hebrews 9:27, they must meet their appointment, and therefore they must be the two witnesses without question.

    My problems with this argument:
    I believe this passage should be taken as a general principle and not so "literal" as supposed for several reasons.
    a. The verse says "once to die." This would rule out Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, the widow of Nain's son, Etychus (did he die?), etc. because they died twice. If one is to take this verse absolutely literally, he must deal with the people who were raised from the dead. I believe that this verse is a general principle that says unless divine intervention occurs, everyone should expect to die once and no going back. God, if he wants to, can have a few exceptions who either died twice or not at all.
    b. Using the same "literal" perspective gives a conflicting problem with another Hebrews passage that mentions Enoch. Hebrews chapter 11 is the famous hall of faith. Enoch is listed here in verse 5.
    This verse says that Enoch "should not see death." Does this mean that he would not die ever, or would not die until the tribulation? It depends upon how literal you need to be. The "literal" problem continues in verse 13, after a list of persons were mentioned (including Enoch).
    If one were to take this verse as "literally" as required in 9:27, one would have to conclude that Enoch died, contradicting verse 5 which said that he should not see death. It should be understood that the died in verse 13 is a blanket statement that does not include Enoch.

    I am not saying that the two witnesses can't be Enoch and Elijah, but that they don't have to be for Hebrews 9:27.

    2. Moses and Elijah: because of several reasons:
    a. They were the ones who were "witnessed" at the Transfiguration
    b. They are the figure heads for "the Law and the Prophets."
    c. They both combined did many of the things that the two witnesses will do:
    d. That at least Elijah will be one witness because of Malachi 4:5.
    My problems with this argument:
    Not much really, there are quite a few good arguments for Moses and Elijah. However, I think that Malachi 4:5 may have been fulfilled by John the Baptist.
    Here is an idea that I am throwing into the air. I don't necessarily stick by it, but I just want to see what you all think.

    3. Daniel and John the Apostle: for several reasons:

    a. They were both "witnesses" to end times events. John saw many of the same things that Daniel saw.
    b. They both were presented with a book. Perhaps the book that Daniel was told to seal up is the same one that John ate?
    c. They are both told by an angel that they would do something again. Daniel was told to rest, but that he would "stand in the lot at the end of the days." John was told that he would "prophesy again before many."

    Perhaps the two witnesses are two who witnessed the same end time events for which they would preach in their duration.
     
  2. Grasshopper

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    I think from scripture it is clear John was that Elijah of Malachi. That puts the "day of the Lord" of Malachi in the time -frame of John the Baptist, which puts the "Tribulation" also in the time of John, which renders the question moot.:tonofbricks:
     
  3. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
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    maybe they haven't been born yet...:saint:
     
  4. AresMan

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    That's still a perfectly viable option.
     
  5. Mel Miller

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    Daniel and the Apostle John?

    AresMan,

    Quote:
    ______________________________________________________________
    Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the Scribes that Elias must first come?
    Mat 17:11 And Iesus answered, and said vnto them, Elias truely shall first come, and restore all things:
    Mat 17:12 But I say vnto you, that Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but haue done vnto him whatsoeuer they listed: Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
    Mat 17:13 Then the Disciples vnderstood that he spake vnto them of Iohn the Baptist.
    _____________________________________________________________

    John the Baptist was dead when Jesus said "Elijah is coming and will restore (future tense) all things"! Peter predicted that "ALL THINGS WILL BE RESTORED" at the "times (plural) of restoration" which is still future!! Acts 3:21. The "great and wonderful Day" to which Peter also referred, is the Day Christ comes to "rescue Israel" and restore His former People at the head of the nations over which we also will rule for 1000 years!!!

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :saint:
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Amen, Brother Mel Miller -- Preach it! :thumbs:

    "Day of the Lord" refers to any time that God
    intervenes in the affairs of mankind. Here
    are some "Day of the Lord"s:

    1. When God sent Jesus to the earth as a babe
    destined for Calvary, Death, & Resurrection.
    2. When God will send Jesus to collect His
    Church Age people prior to the Tribulation period.
    3. When God sends Jesus to Earth to destroy
    the Antichrist and visibally rule from a physical
    throne of David over a physical Yisrael in a
    physical world for a non-literal Thousand Years:
    the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.
    4. The Millinnial Messanic Kingdom
     
  7. Mel Miller

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    The Two Witnesses

    Brother Ed,

    You need to show the Two Witnesses are connected to the ONE Day of the Lord at which and during which the Two Witnesses rise up on the "last day" to fulfill the word of the Lord that "He will raise up all believers on the very same day He comes to destroy all the wicked"!

    The 7th Trumpet is God's "appointed (kairos) time to judge the dead (resurrection) and to reward (rapture) the prophets and saints (including the two Witnesses) and ALL who fear God, both small and great, and to destroy (on that same day) the destroyers of earth"!! Rev.11:15-18.

    The fulfillment of your #2 and #3 separated dayS must be combined into ONE SINGLE DAY OF THE LORD, at which time and during the 12 HOURS of which, ALL believers will be "raised up, snatched and gathered together above, taken to the Presence of the Lord as His Bride" AND ... because of His awesome glory and majesty all mankind left behind will instantly beg for mercy or involuntarily bow as their tongues rot in their mouths and their bodies disintegrate in their tracks!!!

    The quickness and totality of God's Wrath cannot be spread out over a
    period of hourS or dayS as in any historical time of God's judgment! His "anger and wrath" will be combined at the HOUR of the 7th Seal and 7th Trumpet and 7th Plague when there are "voices and flashes of lightning and peals of thunder and a great quake" with its aftershocks!! These will "destroy Babylon and earth's cities and mountains and move all the islands out of their places ON THE DAY Christ comes to be glorified in the Saints and in flaming fire to destroy all who refuse to repent"!!!
    2 Thess.1:7-10.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :applause:
     
  8. Ed Edwards

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    Mel Miller: //The fulfillment of your #2 and #3 separated dayS
    must be combined into ONE SINGLE DAY OF THE LORD ... //

    This is your requirement, not God's.

    -------------------------------------------
    Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
    with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
    to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
    Millennial Messanic Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

    1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
    (John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
    1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

    2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
    2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
    (Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

    3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
    (1 Thess 4:16-17)
    3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
    (Rev 19:6-14)

    4R. end of the Gentile Age
    (Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
    4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
    (Revelation 19)

    5R. Tribulation period begins
    5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

    6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
    (1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
    6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
    (Rev 6:12-17)

    7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
    (1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
    7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
    (Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

    8R. Focus: Lord and Church
    (1 Thess 4:13-18)
    8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
    (Romans 11)

    9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
    9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

    10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
    10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
    judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
    judgement.

    11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
    11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

    12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
    12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).

    13R. Christians are promised they will be delivered
    -- from the wrath to come
    13SC. Israeli are told to flee the wrath to come


    You need to show the Two Witnesses are connected
    to the ONE Day of the Lord at which and during which
    the Two Witnesses rise up on the "last day" to fulfill
    the word of the Lord that "He will raise up all believers
    on the very same day He comes to destroy all the wicked"!

    I think I already did.
    The 'day' of which you speak is called a 'week'
    or a 'seven' in Daniel 9:26.

    Remember, in prophetic literature:

    Day = the appropriate time
    Hour = the appropriate time
    Week = the appropriate time
    Month = the appropriate time
    Year = the appropriate time

    Remember, in the dispensation (economy) of God:
    the blind see
    the lame walk
    the rejected are exhaulted
    the poor are rich
    the sinner is clean
    all who seek Him find Him

    Revelation 11:1-3 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And there was giuen me a reede like vnto a rod,
    and the Angel stood, saying, Rise,
    and measure the Temple of God, and the Altar,
    and them that worship therein.
    2 But the Court which is without the Temple leaue out,
    and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles
    ,
    and the holy citie shall they tread vnder
    foote fourty and two moneths
    .
    3 And I will giue power vnto my two witnesses,
    and they shall prophesie
    a thousand two hundred and threescore dayes
    clothed in sackcloth.

    note the same 3½-year period during which the Temple
    is rebuilt in Jerusalem, the two prophets prophesy.
    Tis is not the same 3½-year time in which Yisrael
    is kept by the hand of God in the Wilderness.
    So the first 3½-years of the Tribulation Period is
    marked by:

    1. the rise of the Antichrist
    2. the rebuilding of the Temple*
    3. the ministry of the Two Prophets

    * the daily sacrifice can start as soon as the Temple
    starts building, it need only take place on the
    Temple Mount.
     
  9. Grasshopper

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    Perhaps you should read more carefully. Jesus is repeating the prophecy that the disciples are referring to:

    Mat 17:11 And Iesus answered, and said vnto them, Elias truely shall first come, and restore all things:

    Then He clarifies their understanding that the Elijah that “was to come” has already come:

    Mat 17:12 But I say vnto you, that Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but haue done vnto him whatsoeuer they listed: Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
    Mat
    17:13 Then the Disciples vnderstood that he spake vnto them of Iohn the Baptist.


    The disciples then understood it was John, not the physical Elijah or anyone else. Too bad most today still don’t see it.
     
  10. Mel Miller

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    ____________________________________________________________
    I beg to differ because Elijah hasn't died YET! Jesus repeated what He had said BEFORE John died, i.e., that "this is Elijah that was to come"!! Matt.11:14. But then He added, after John's death, that "Elijah is indeed coming and will (future tense) restore all things"!!!

    The Baptist could not, DID NOT, restore "all things" after he was dead!!!

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
     
  11. Grasshopper

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    Once again, the text is clear:

    Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of Heaven is taken by violence, and the violent take it by force.
    Mat 11:13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.
    Mat 11:14 And if you will receive it, this is Elijah who is to come.

    Once again, Jesus tells us who the Elijah of Malachi's prophecy was. It was John the Baptist. (If you will recieve it).

    Doesn't say this is a type or this is still future, but this is! Hey, exclamation points do make it seem as if one is correct.

    By the way, Jesus never said this: "Elijah is indeed coming and will (future tense) restore all things"!!!

     
  12. AresMan

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    I agree with Grasshopper, even though I am not a preterist. I see these verses exactly as he sees it--that John the Baptist was the complete fulfillment of the Malachi prophecy. John the Baptist was the "Elijah" that was to come, before the "great and dreadful day of the Lord" (which could refer to his first coming). Just because it says "great and dreadful" doesn't mean it has to refer to the great tribulation. Even the preterists agree that Jesus came twice; the preterists just believe that Jesus' second coming was almost forty years after the first coming.

    I don't believe that the Malachi prophesy necessitates that Elijah has to be one of the two witnesses. I am not saying that Elijah can't be one; only that he doesn't have to be one.

    BTW, just curious. According to preterists, who were the two witnesses?
     
  13. Ed Edwards

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    Grasshopper: //By the way, Jesus never said this:
    "Elijah is indeed coming and will (future tense) restore all things"!!!

    Actually, Jesus said exactly that:

    The Holman Christian Standard Bible
    Matthew 17:11 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ )
    "Elijah is coming and will restore everything," He replied.

    Try not to get hung up on:
    Mat 17:11 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And Iesus answered, and said vnto them,
    Elias truely shall first come, and restore all things:
     
  14. Grasshopper

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    HCSB sounds more like a paraphrase version, what does the rest of the verse say?

    Young's literal translation:

    Mat 11:14 and if ye are willing to receive it , he is Elijah who was about to come;

    My belief is they are the Prophets and the Law.

     
  15. AresMan

    AresMan
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    How do you interpret these verses?

    The text says that they were/are "two Prophets." So, are the Law and the Prophets "two Prophets"?

    I know that the book of Revelation has many confusing metaphors and some of them are hard to interpret. However, if these verses are referring symbolically to the Law and the Prophets, this is quite a metaphor! I know that preterists are willing to treat much more of Revelation metaphorically than futurists, as some of the grandiose descriptions would be difficult to placate from history.
     
  16. Grasshopper

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    The Law represents one the Prophets represent the other.

    Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
    Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
    Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

    These verses are descriptive of the powers of Moses and Elijah. Moses representing the Law and Elijah representing the Prophets.

    2Ki 1:10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

    1Ki 17:1 And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.


    Exo 7:20 And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.

    Revelation draws on the symbols and imagery of the OT.

    Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:



    Just find the similar in the OT then you can potentially know what it is referring to in the NT. Find out who is called a Harlot in the OT and you will identify who the Harlot is in Revelation.



    And rightfully so in my opinion. Do you interpret “shortly” and “at hand” metaphorically?


    Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

    Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.


    There are some preterist commentaries on Revelation that you can read that detail the events in a verse by verse manner. I’ll just ask you, according to Revelation 11:8, where was the Lord crucified?

    Secondly, you said this:

    "I see these verses exactly as he sees it--that John the Baptist was the complete fulfillment of the Malachi prophecy."

    Doesn’t that mean you must also believe the events of that prophecy were also fulfilled in the generation of John?

    Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

    Do you agree with Gill that this spoke of the events of AD70?

    Mal 4:1 - For, behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven,.... Not the day of judgment, as Kimchi and other interpreters, both Jewish and Christian, think; but the day of Christ's coming in his kingdom and power, to take vengeance on the Jewish nation, which burned like an oven, both figuratively and literally; when the wrath of God, which is compared to fire, came upon that people to the uttermost; and when their city and temple were burnt about their ears, and they were surrounded with fire, as if they had been in a burning oven: and this being so terrible, as can hardly be conceived and expressed, the word "behold" is prefixed to it, not only to excite attention, but horror and terror at so dreadful a calamity; which though future, when the prophet wrote, was certain:
     

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