The Proverbial Dead Horse

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by brightlights, Dec 14, 2004.

  1. brightlights

    brightlights
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    This has probably been beaten to death here, but I'm new so please have patience.

    What does "patience" mean in this verse from Romans 9?

    22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction?

    Does this, perhaps, imply that God has patience with those who are hardened before hand? Would it be accurate to say that God hardens those who first harden themselves?
     
  2. whatever

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    It just means that he didn't blast them at their first disobedience. He gave them plenty of space for repentance knowing that they never would repent. The potter's vessels don't get to decide the purpose for which they are created. Opposing views are sure to follow.
     
  3. brightlights

    brightlights
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    Why didn't they repent? Was it because they chose to stray from God or was it because God did not call them to? If the latter, why didn't God call them to?
     
  4. whatever

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    God commands all men everywhere to repent. But He doesn't always grant repentance (2 Timothy 2:24-26).
     
  5. brightlights

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    God commands of men something only God can do?
     
  6. whatever

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    Sure. He commanded Israel to keep the law, knowing that they could not.
     
  7. brightlights

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    Yes, God omnisciently knew that Israel would not keep the law, but it still had to be given. God knew Adam would sin if faced with the moral dilema -- yet he still created man.
     
  8. whatever

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    Yep.
     
  9. brightlights

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    I don't see how this negates following God by will, though.
     
  10. whatever

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    It just shows that there are some things that God commands us to do, and holds us accountable to do, but that we are unable to do. I maintain that repentance is also one of those things, based on that passage I quoted earlier. It is only after He changes our wills, when He grants repentance, that we can follow Him by will.
     
  11. brightlights

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    Are we unable to do them? "Be ye perfect, therefor as your father in heaven is perfect". "The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak".
     
  12. whatever

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    The unregenerate are unable to. The regenerate are able, but only because Christ is in us.
     
  13. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    I have in the past studied the first three words of Romans 9:22 which the Apostle Paul places in the realm of the hypothetical. Dr. A.T. Robertson, the Greek scholar who was once Professor of N.T. interpretation at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky seems to be saying something similar as to what I am indicating. Volume IV p. 384 in his book “Word Pictures of the N.T.” says,

    ‘Paul does not say here that God did it or that they did it. That they are responsible may be seen from I Thess. 2:15f. Unto destruction (eis apoleian). Endless perdition (Matt. 7:13; II Thess. 2:3; Phil. 3:19, not annihilation.’

    I think he could have used better passages to prove his point but this is his exact quote above.

    While the Apostle Paul speaks of this being hypothetical and or theoretical, Calvinists suggest that Romans nine portrays God, out of Character, hating and autocratically ordaining some to Hell and some to Heaven, while N.T. interpretation portrays the true God as loving lost ones. [John 3:16] In fact, this Lamb of God has taken away the sin of the world. [John 1:29 & I John 2:2]

    God does not dominate human beings; He knocks at the heart’s door. [Revelation 3:20]

    Another quote from Dr. Robertson on the same page says, ‘Paul thus claims clearly God’s sovereign right (exousian, power, right, authority, from exesti) to use men (already sinners) for His own purpose.’

    All sinners are responsible to God [John 3:18]. Jesus does not take one lump of clay and mold some people into being vessels to destruction. Neither does He take clay forming it into men and women who He has preordained to Heaven and eternal life. We will be judged according to what we have done with Christ. Did we receive His Son or reject or neglect Jesus. [I John 5:12]

    God speaking through the Apostle Paul is suggesting that while sinners remain in an unsaved condition of heart, He may and does use men like Pharaoh to show His mighty power. In Pharaoh's case it was to show the Lord's superior power and authority over the 'paper tiger' and world leader called the Pharaoh of Egypt. [Read Romans 9:17] To this fact, we cannot say God why did you do this. :cool:
     

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