The "Q" theory

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Phillip, Oct 22, 2004.

  1. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    What is the thoughts of those on the board regarding the "Q" document that apparently no longer exists, but was thought by some to be a central theme of the gospels?
     
  2. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Messages:
    4,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    It still exists, I found it on Amazon.com. [​IMG]

    I don't know much about it, when I first heard about it years ago, I thought it had something to do with Star Trek. [​IMG]
     
  3. Terry_Herrington

    Terry_Herrington
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Messages:
    4,455
    Likes Received:
    1
    I don't believe it ever existed.
     
  4. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why?
     
  5. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    I believe there were numerous source documents, including "Q" as a generic title, the Logia, the Sayings of the Twelve. That would be in keeping with the Jewish culture of that day.

    From those, maybe many parts of these were memorized by early believers, the Gospel writers could pick and choose sayings, teachings, etc. They could also borrow from each other.

    The Gospel writers were not hermits writing in a vacuum. Matthew, Peter (whose Gospel Mark records), Lucas and John were well-travelled men and had parchments and scrolls and access to a wealth of resources in those first decades of the Christian Church.
     
  6. Terry_Herrington

    Terry_Herrington
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Messages:
    4,455
    Likes Received:
    1
    Why? </font>[/QUOTE]Because I don't believe it. Do you have a copy of this Q document?
     
  7. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why? </font>[/QUOTE]Because I don't believe it. Do you have a copy of this Q document? </font>[/QUOTE]No, but I don't have a copy of the receipt for payment of taxes that Joseph & Mary obtained in Bethlehem. Did they pay their taxes? Probably.
     
  8. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you, Dr. Bob, that makes a lot of sense. [​IMG]
     
  9. rsr

    rsr
    Expand Collapse
    <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    10,072
    Likes Received:
    101
    The Q document is a theoretical construct that attempts to explain shared portions of the synoptic gospels as well as the testimony of Papias as provided through Eusebius.

    Q, it seems to me, to be a convenient shorthand for the various collections Dr. Bob has cited; the differences in the Gospels could indicate a multitude of sources, not a single document.

    There is no known Q document; various attempts to reconstruct it have resulted in versions that don't contain a single verse of Matthew.

    The latest interest in the Q document seems to have been created by the Gospel of Thomas, which should be a cautionary note.

    In addition, Papias said that Mark was Peter's interpreter, which would indicate that Mark wrote in Greek. Of Matthew he says, "Now Matthew compiled the reports in a Hebrew manner of speech, but each interpreted them as he could."

    Because I don't know Greek, I am not sure what "Hebrew manner of speech" means. Is it Hebrew? Aramaic? Or a Palestinian Koine?

    "Ματθαῖος μὲν οὖν Ἑβραΐδι διαλέκτῳ τὰ λόγια συνετάξατο, ἡρμήνευσεν δ' αὐτὰ ὡς ἧν δυνατὸς ἕκαστος."
     
  10. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    I've heard some argue that "Q" was simply oral tradition--there was a body of oral tradition that was used as source for the gospels.

    If you've ever lived where a people group practice keeping their history intact through oral tradition, you realize that this it not as far fetched as it seems on the surface.
     
  11. Terry_Herrington

    Terry_Herrington
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Messages:
    4,455
    Likes Received:
    1
    Why would anyone assume I am wrong if I don't believe in a theoretical document that no one has ever seen? I believe that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote what God intended for them to write, plain and simple.
     
  12. untangled

    untangled
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2002
    Messages:
    567
    Likes Received:
    0
    Couldn't the differences in the Gospels just compliment one another to give the full picture? I remember studying "Q". There are alot of theories out there about it.
     
  13. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Considering that God inspired the original authors, I agree with you.

    God did; however, allow those authors some latitude in their writings. The author's personality and style of writing was maintained. I think the inspiration process was more of a thought for thought basis with God watching over to make sure there were no errors.

    Take a look at Revelation. If God were to have specified every word, then the Greek would have probably been a better style.

    Some of Paul's arrogance was demonstrated in his epistles. I think God did this for a reason. The Bible contains the good, the bad and the ugly. We are all human and He certainly did not hide the fact that the authors or the people who they wrote about were perfect Christians.

    If we know that King David can commit adultry and murder, then when we fail, we will not give up hope. This by no means tells us it is okay to sin. But, it puts Christianity into perspective in a world full of sin.

    Because God allowed personality of the author, I have no doubt that He allowed some of those authors to obtain their information through possible secular sources. If Q did indeed exist, it would not harm my belief in the inspiration of the originals. It would have simply been "reference material".
     
  14. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with Terry. Q is entirely hypothetical; there is no evidence for it. I first came across it as a new believer when I was visiting a rather liberal church. It confused me at first because what I was reading assumed there was a Q document and I wondered why I had never heard of it. Then I learned it doesn't exist!

    My understanding is that the Q theory arose from German Higher Criticism in the 1800's -- people who sought to give human, non-supernatural explanations to how the Bible came about.

    I think the onus is on the Q proponents to show evidence for such a document. But they can't because it doesn't exist -- God inspired the Gospel writers just as He inspired all the other writers of the Bible.
     
  15. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2001
    Messages:
    2,782
    Likes Received:
    0
    God could have used Q to help Matthew and Luke know what to write; or God could have done it some other way. Regardless, it is plain that Matthew and Luke have some teachings of Jesus that Mark didn't have. So their source is "Q" but that's only shorthand for "what was it?"

    How can you NOT believe in something that is really a question instead of a statement?
     
  16. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Q" was first popularized by liberals who did not want to accept the inerrancy of Scripture.

    I hold to Matthean priority, and therefore have no need for Q. It is just a theory. Still, it is more credible that KJVO.
     
  17. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Encourage Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" (used to be two vol, now in one). Worth every penny (under $20) and he deals with the topic is plain, matter-of-fact way.

    And a number of other topics on inspiration and Jesus Christ.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  18. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    When I've read about Q, it's always presented as almost a fact, not as a question. Why wouldn't the 4 gospel writers have different info? God used each of them and their own relationship and history with Jesus differently. So some of the info is the same, some different, but the info comes through their own unique personalities, and each gospel has its own unique slant. Amazing how the HS does this! It seems easy to me.
     
  19. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Matthew and John were eyewitnesses. Mark wrote down Peter's sermons. That leaves Luke. Luke said he studied prior to the writing of his gospel. That would include interviews (with Mary?), the disciples, the writings of Matthew, etc. Q is only necessary if one denies inspiration.
     
  20. go2church

    go2church
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2002
    Messages:
    4,304
    Likes Received:
    6
    I can remember covering the Q concept in school and it didn't make much sense then either. There is a bit of box folks seem to paint themselves into with Q. If there is information two people recorded they had to get it from someone else (Q) and sense we don't have Q we can't be sure if the information is accurate. If they have unique information it must not be original because no one else has the information and we can't be sure it is accurate. Either way you are left with the opportunity to deny the authenticty of scripture.
     

Share This Page

Loading...