The question of fault

Ray.

As your last post was not addressed to anyone I shall make a reply.

I wasn't aware that I was landing. I was talking from Exodus 4:21. I have never stated the number of the lost.

Why did you leave Exodus 4:21 out of your list of places of the Lord hardening Pharaoh's heart?
Why did you not answer my question?

johnp.

 

a question of fault? or a question of sovereignty?

with Adam's fall, it seems God's sovereignty was put to a momentary rest, as it was not God's desire that Adam should sin. calvinists in this regard accept Adam's true free will, and God's desire for Adam not to sin to be disappointed. at the fall, Adam had free will, and God's desire did not succeed.

when it comes to salvation, it is then a matter of God's sovereignty. whom does He want to save, or whom did God elect before the foundation of the world.

to the calvinist, God's will does not always succeed after all (or in the first place).

 

no enwells,

by the way you put it, men are not responsible. rather, they were made responsible. this point should be made clear.

 

Aki.

If God, in His Sovereign glory, decided that the future of the human race should depend on one man and, in His Sovereign power, gave the right for Adam to use his own will in this decision, then at that point God is no longer Sovereign and no longer God.

This is not an argument. The argument should remain in scripture not what people say or do. For my part, I say that it was God's fault.
Whatever is meant by 'true free will', if that removes God from being the cause of everything that happens then it is a presumption and a false god. Simple idol worship. It removes God's Sovereignity and replaces Him at the heart. Faith becomes the thing to worship instead of the creator.

The creation of the world ensured the fall. That cannot be explained away with free will. God created Adam.

Who made the Calvinist to be different from the Arminian? God did. 1 Cor 4:7. Where has the free will gone? We are all at the disposal of God and He does as He pleases. "DA 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"
That's my God.

Why is it that people complain that it is not right for God to create some for a terrible future and some for a glorious one? Does He not own us? Have we got rights? Has He none? If He thinks that we, the saved, will realise what we missed and glorify Him all the more who are we to judge that wrong? If He makes one man's life a misery, just because, and another's a dream come true, just because, do we dare judge Him? He does not ask us to judge Him but to accept what He says and submit.

johnp.

 

Hi JohnP;

If you understand Sovereignty that way then please tell me how God can remain Sovereign and have unalterable predestination giving His plans more power over what happens. Preventing Him self from changing His own mind. Thus destroying His sovereignty.

I agree; It's just that it pleases Him to give man a choice.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

This shows the choice of man. Why can't you see that?

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

God pleads with man to change his own heart and path. Why would God do this if it weren't possible? God is not an idiot
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
This verse is clearly saying it is up to us to be converted.

You see God as dictating everything, but God is not a dictator. Of course He could be if He wanted it that way. But then if He did He would only have puppets on a string and not one with genuine Love for Him. If we are made to Love Him regardless of will then there is no Love at all.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Johnp,

Your quote was: ‘Why did you leave Exodus 4:21 out of your list of places of the Lord hardening Pharaoh's heart? Why did you not answer my question?’ [/quote]

I did not intentionally slight this verse. I notice that God did harden Pharaoh’s heart in the above passage. But, please, notice it was not to damn either Pharaoh or all Egyptians, His purpose was solely to cause Pharaoh not to release the Israelites from Egypt, as also stated in ‘the larger than life’ Romans chapter 9:17. God demonstrated then and even to this hour, to everyone who reads Romans that God is infinitely more powerful than any human being.


We believe that Pharaoh had direct access to Moses and he could have accepted the Lord God Jehovah, but Pharaoh hardened his own heart toward God. [Exodus 8:15, 19,32; 9:7, 34, 35; I Samuel 6:6]

This is like a Muslim having access to Rev. Dr. Billy Graham and then turning a deaf ear to the real truth of Almighty God. Pharaoh turned from the prophet and the true God and continued in his own religion and customs.

You will find in the O.T. that the number of passages are about the same in number as Pharaoh hardening his own heart and God hardening Pharaoh's heart. We believe that the leader of Egypt used his will in the wrong way, so the Lord sealed his destiny, by hardening his heart against
the true God. God used Pharaoh as a model that man is 'a paper tiger' in comparison with the unlimited might of the Lord God of Heaven and earth.

 

Hello ILUVLIGHT.

For God to change His mind would mean there is a weakness in Himself. He would not be God. Mal 3:6 "I the LORD do not change..."

In His Sovereignity? In that choice we are sovereign and He is not. You would agree with that?
That's His glory. None shall share that.
ISA 42:7 to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.
ISA 42:8 "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.
That is His to give or not as He sees fit.

I do see your point but disagree that a choice is being offered in the sense you believe. You are fixated in the belief that there is no alternative to choice but there is.
God has decided to call His sheep by the preaching of the word. Before the Holy Spirit moves a man, either hardening or softening, the man needs the infomation in his head. This is the normal natural condition. God can save a man that has never heard of Him, and must do so when saving babies, but normally cause and effect are in operation. Cause and effect has been set up by God and He tends to work through that. What would it be like to believe in Jesus never having heard of Jesus?
I believe:
When one of His sheep hears the word of God it is used by the Holy Spirit to move the man in the direction He wills. He wills in our will, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. Php 2:13.
This acting in our will and turning it towards Him means that the decision might, to us, seem to come from us. And it is credited to us as righteousness by God. If the impetus originated in us then we would be saved by works. The choice towards God would be a selfrighteousness and a selfrighteousness is not possible for us because we are sinners. Rom 3:9-18. That is why selfrighteousness has a bad name. Bad people practise it.
All of us left in our natural fallen state reject God out of hand. Rom 8:7-8 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
Those that get to hear the message have it in their brains. The Holy Spirit will use it as He wills. If the Holy Spirit leaves it dormant or hardens the person against it then the person wills it so, because God interfers with the the persons will, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. Php 2:13. This brings a worse judgement. That is not fair! That is true but not fair.

The choice is there for the Holy Spirit. Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. John 10:27.
We have no choice.

Do you understand that? I don't mean agree, that is up to God, but do I make any sense? I will try to write it out in a different way if not.

Scripture allows us to know what is going on. Knowledge of how God operates allows us to see what He is doing. When a man rejects the message we do not see man at work but God. So it goes for everything that happens to me. Everything I see and hear is provided by God for me. When I get a little old lady driving at 15 mph in front of me I do not blame the little old lady I blame Him. He seems to have an endless number of little old ladies ready to put in front of me. My frustration is fleeting because I would be losing my temper at God. PS 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight.
There is now a quality about my patience which surprises me.
I know that whatever anyone says to me is from the Lord. He speaks through us.
2SA 16:9 Then Abishai son of Zeruiah said to the king, "Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Let me go over and cut off his head."
2SA 16:10 But the king said, "What do you and I have in common, you sons of Zeruiah? If he is cursing because the LORD said to him, `Curse David,' who can ask, `Why do you do this?' "
2SA 16:11 David then said to Abishai and all his officials, "My son, who is of my own flesh, is trying to take my life. How much more, then, this Benjamite! Leave him alone; let him curse, for the LORD has told him to. 12 It may be that the LORD will see my distress and repay me with good for the cursing I am receiving today."

Oh! He is. A despot. Listen to this. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. Rev 19:15. That is the choice? Do as you are told or go to Hell. Some choice. Some free will with coercion!

johnp.

 

Thanks Ray.

Yes but Exodus 4:21 shows the primary cause of Pharaoh's hardening heart does it not? It's not how many of each but who was the cause.

Is that not an interference with his will?

He was a man like the rest of us. Rom 8:7-8 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

Not according to Exodus 4:21. He had no chance. It was God's fault that Pharaoh was in the state that he was in. Ratchetting down goes on when God give a man over and He gives a man over as He wills. None of us are as bad as we can be thanks to Him. We should pray that He ratchets us up. That is the lesson I garner from Pharaoh.

We believe... Who's the we if you don't mind me asking?

johnp.