The question of Why?

Granny Gumbo says:

People say things like "God hates the sin but not the sinner". How does one separate the sin from the sinner? Did God burn the sin of sodomy or did He burn the sodomite? My point is, how do you separate the KJV from the KJVO?

AVL1984 says:

You can separate the KJV from the KJVO. I'm a user of the KJV by preference. I'm not KJVO, though, by any means, and never will be again, though I once was. I use other versions as well as the KJV, and feel very comfortable doing it, because I have a confidence that they, too are the word of God, translated differently, but accurately according to their underlying texts, keeping intact the fundamentals of and doctrines of the Christian faith.

Granny Gumbo asks:

All these many threads that crop up overnight, are against the so-called false teaching of onlyism. I don't have a belief in any "ism". I believe the kjBible is the true and perfect word of God. Don't y'all?

AVL1984 says:

It is no more the true and perfect word of God than any other translation. You post the KJV as the kjB. The translators of the KJV had brains enough and guts enough to admit that they were translating a VERSION, which most KJVO's will not even admit that the VERSION is. They conclusively and EXCLUSIVELY call it the only Bible. Not true by any stretch of the imagination. If one cannot admit that the KJV is just that, another translation, then they are guilty of bibliolatry. They accuse those who use MV's of being Bible destroyers, so they are false accusers as well. As stated many times here, I'm not an apologist for the MV's, but I will not stand by while they are misrepresented and attacked (yes, I said ATTACKED) by KJVO's who seek to disparage other Christians faith, service to Christ, and salvation.

Granny Gumbo says:

You say you love this Bible, but yet, just go back & read all your post. I see an attack on me, on Michelle, and others here.

AVL1984 says:

Michelle refuses to answer questions posed to her, and comes off as an elitist know it all, tearing down others beliefs with unfounded accusations, implying that moderators of the forum and others are uneducated, unable to accept the truth, and is just basically disrespectful in her approach to anyone, and then signs her posts with "love in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour". With the intentional misrepresentation and elitist attitude she shows, and the disparaging remarks she makes, she has no love for the brethren. As far as you go, I don't believe many have a quarrel with you. You state that you believe the KJV is the preserved Word of God, and you chose to use that version only. I and many others here have no problem with that. We do have problems with intentional misrepresentations and questions about our faith in Christ, service, salvation and other things because some do not use the KJV exclusively or at all.

Granny Gumbo says:

Some have even been locked out. I've understood every word she's said & she's displayed a Christ-like attitude the whole time.


AVL says:

Some have been locked out because they refuse to stay on subject, trolling for reactionary purposes only, attacking anyone and everyone on anything. This is not Christ-like in the least, and they should be locked out for the benefit of us who would like real open, honest debate on subjects in a Christ-like manner.


Granny Gumbo says:

It sure looks like the old Book is being attacked, which is an attack on those who love it. Yes, the attacks are getting worse because the devil has a plan and he's been operating it since the beginning. He will spare no effort trying to destroy God's Word; thus, we're compelled to spare no effort to preserve it, regardless of all cost, including ridicule. I'm ready.

AVL1984 says:

There are no attacks on the KJV itself. It is the vitrolic attitude that it is presented with as the ONLY word of/translation of God's word. This clearly and truthfully is not the truth.
I am not ridiculing you, GG. I respect you very much. I wish you the best and pray for the same in your service to God. I personally have nothing against you. I don't even know you.

Anyways, Sister, this is my humble opinion of the situation. Others here may feel differently, but that is between you and them, and between them and God.

God bless you and have a great day!

AVL1984

 

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

 

Does anybody ever bother to go over and
read this item? It is pinned to the top.
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/4/1608.html?
According to it, i am a KJVO#2.
I really don't like it when KJVO#4s
or KJVO#5s act like they are better Christians
than i am because of their opinion.
Hopefully i don't appear to dis the
KJVO#4s because of their opinion.

 

You post the KJV as kjB.

All my life, I knew it simply as the Holy Bible. Never once did I, nor those before me, call it the KJV. Never once did we say, "please hand me the King James." It was always understood that what we had in our home, our church, our school, our courtroom, was the Holy Bible; all were the same. And when scripture was quoted, whether in a letter, lessons, or whatever, one did not have to put (KJV) after it.

I am not a user of this Book by "preference"; never have been, never will be. I don't fault you or others for what you feel the Lord leads you to use. Just as earnestly as you feel that, I feel the same about my Bible. I don't look down my nose at you or think you as cultic. I don't call you rabid or cancer or pickled or ignorant or troll & worse.

I am sure in what I believe and hold dear. I have a peace that passeth all understanding. I have blessed assurance that what I use as my "road map" is pure and not fool's gold. I believe God gave us this Book for today, tomorrow and forever. IMO, it needs no defending, just as I don't need to defend the weapon I pack. It speaks for itself.

I do not worship the kjBible and I most definitely believe there was a Bible before the King James...one of like kind. By faith, I believe this. My faith is NOT in man-made doctrine; mine is in my LORD JESUS CHRIST! The way I KNOW Him, is thru that blessed ol'Book.

 

Comrade:I'm curious. Most of the time all I hear is the KJV being attacked. Why is this?

Because some KJVOs claim the KJV is PERFECT, and we prove differently to them.

What has satan done since the Garden of Eden? he has tried to manipulate God's word.

Yes...and among his manipulations is the false doctrine known as KJVOism.


When Eve responded to satan he said back to her "no that's not what God meant" If you look at the new translations they take out verses and even chunks of chapters. Why is that?

They're often translated from different manuscript sources...but that doesn't mean they're wrong. An equal case can be made for some mss having ADDED material.

 

Comrade:I agree. Why don't we try to modernize Shakespeare's work?

Because he's dead, and his work was frozen in time with his death. No one else can write "Shakespeare", even if it happens to be his/her name. OTOH, God is not only continuously alive; He's in charge. And He presents, provides, and updates His word as He chooses.


An English major told me because it will ruin the beauty of it. Then why change the KJV?

Ya might ask those who actually changed the KJV, such as the officials of Cambridge U. in England. Otherwise, no one here is changing the KJV; we simply use other Bible versions along with it.

 

The KJVO claim that the KJV translators were unaware that they were producing "re-inspired" and "advanced revelation" Scripture in the English language in spite of their own personal testimony.

Personally I would rather believe the KJV translators testimony than someone almost 400 years later with a message from God ala a Joseph Smith peepstone or the "Urim and Thummim" advanced revelation eyepiece.

HankD

 

It is so sad, and unfortunate, that most posts that I read here concerning this issue, is that God's word of truth in our own language is "advanced revelation" as if what we have and had in our language is something that is "new doctrine" and "new scripture" foreign to what the churches have always known and had. This couldn't be further from the truth regarding the Holy Bible.

1 Tim. 3

15. But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.


Our Holy Bible is the very word of truth in our own language, to which is translated accurately under the providence and power of Almighty God and has been living in the churches of God for generations. The only ones guilty of "advanced revelation" is coming from the so called scholars and translators of today, who's methods of translation, require this. The thought for thought, vs. the word for word equation, and the fallicy of believing "older = more accurate and better", even knowing that these things were and are absent from the churches. This is the fallacy of the "opinions of men" that have infiltrated the thinking of most christians today. One would rather have and believe we have a "preferrred choice", to which in their mind it has become, based upon the brainwashing and deception of and for the above mentioned reasons. God's word of truth, is not up for "choice" nor "preference". Absolute truth is not a choice. It is evident and defends itself and is known. God's word of truth, is NOT A CHOICE, nor is it A PREFERENCE. God indicates what His word is:

Hebrews 4

12. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.


Nowhere does God tell us in the scriptures, that His word of truth is a choice to be had, or a preference to liken it to. It is eternal, and it is absolute truth. His word has no error. Many continually get caught up into questioning the unknown's in order to justify their opinion and avoid the truth. Many are sadly reasoning themselves into compromise with error and in oppostion of the truth. I do not know the reasons for this. Maybe it is because many rather desire to please men, rather than to please God. I believe there are many who are genuine also, in their reasoning (even though they are deceived) in that they are looking at this being a good thing for people today in understanding the word of God. This is the biggest lie and deception being told and believed today, in order to disguise the real danger of this issue. Sadly, many today, even non-christians have been spoon fed a lie, that many today swallow whole and very easy - the ends justifies the means. This is very unbiblical, and should be avoided like the plague by christians. This is what is being expressed by those who condone, and justify these mv's. God can bless anyone in any situation, and I would never limit God and his power to do so. I mean God spoke through an ass at one point in history. However, just because God is not limited, He does, and has limited us, and restricts us, for our own benefit, into the strait and narrow path the leadeth unto life. Not a broad and wide gate:

<snipped>

This is the truth, that sadly, many people today are outright rejecting and ignoring, for the sake of compromise and human reasoning and logic. Many today are sadly grasping onto, and believing there exists a "sect" or "false doctrine", to which in reality, is in itself a man made label to attack subtily the bretheren/sisters who come sharing the truth, and the truth that is being shared. Many claim to love the true words of God, but then it is exposed they do not, and attack those who help to expose this. If one truly loves the word of God, they will believe it and share it, and live it. They will not attack it, and doubt it. They would not justify the omittion of it, or altering of it, or changing of it, or addition to it. If one does this, this exposes that they really do not love it, and are in reality and truth attacking it, in order to feel JUSTIFIED in their COMPROMISE.

I have been utterly shocked at all of the mean and course words, and name calling and labeling towards those who come to share the truth. This is not christlike at all as the Lord has also said.

<snipped>

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

[ August 26, 2004, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]

 

Comrade said:

If you actually look at it the reason why Martin Luther got saved was because he met a guy named Erasmus who had the TR.

Luther never met Erasmus.

One day, the KJV-onlyists are going to publish a work of history and it is going to be hailed as one of the greatest works of comedy ever.

I should start laughing now.

And then a few posts later, Comrade dragged out this hoary old chestnut:

Why don't we try to modernize Shakespeare's work?

Even the KJV-onlyists should be able to recognize the difference between an English literary work, written in English, and a Greek and Hebrew literary work, translated into English.

We teach Shakespeare to children in the original not only to teach them about Shakespeare, but something about the history of the English language. The Bible isn't an English work, and therefore there is no need to ossify it in the particular wording of a 17th-century translation.

 

Amen, dianetavegia!

AVL1984

 

Michelle, you use the words "Advanced Revelation" as an attack, and still refer to others who use other VERSIONS of the Bible, accurately translated from the underlying texts as deceived. The new translations say the same things in these verses. The same principles are taught. You, dear, are the one who is deceived. To imply others who use other versions are not serving God or are deceived in unconscionable, yet you continue to do it, undermining their salvation, service to God and otherwise. You act as if God has given the KJV special preference over every other version before and after it. You definitely are the one deceived, friend. I can only pity you.

AVL1984

 

--------------------------------------------------
Michelle, you use the words "Advanced Revelation" as an attack, and still refer to others who use other VERSIONS of the Bible, accurately translated from the underlying texts as deceived. The new translations say the same things in these verses. The same principles are taught. You, dear, are the one who is deceived. To imply others who use other versions are not serving God or are deceived in unconscionable, yet you continue to do it, undermining their salvation, service to God and otherwise. You act as if God has given the KJV special preference over every other version before and after it. You definitely are the one deceived, friend. I can only pity you.

--------------------------------------------------

I am curious to know, do you ever read the scriptures with desire for understanding? Or do you just glance over them, with a critical eye? Do you ever look at these scriptures as the word of God? or do you look at them as a preference or choice to be had? or as a label? Does the word of God, or the word of truth come likened to that of ice cream flavors? And if so, please, I would be interested in your scriptural support for this belief.


--------------------------------------------------
You, dear, are the one who is deceived. To imply others who use other versions are not serving God or are deceived in unconscionable, yet you continue to do it, undermining their salvation, service to God and otherwise.
--------------------------------------------------


<snipped>


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
--------------------------------------------------

[ August 26, 2004, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: C4K ]

 

I have condemned nothing except the fallacies of the KJVO position. I have the Word of God in several different versions. I don't 'worship' one above all others as a complete divine revelation without errors. God never promised that. Prove where he has if you believe you can, and for pete's sake, RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth instead of just spouting it out as fact.

AVL1984

 

Michelle: God's word of truth, is NOT A CHOICE, nor is it A PREFERENCE. God indicates what His word is:

And nowhere at any time has He EVER indicated it's in only the KJV.

Sadly, many today, even non-christians have been spoon fed a lie, that many today swallow whole and very easy - the ends justifies the means. This is very unbiblical, and should be avoided like the plague by christians.

Yes...that lie is called "the KJVO myth".

Nowhere does God tell us in the scriptures, that His word of truth is a choice to be had, or a preference to liken it to.

And nowhere does He say He's limited to the KJV.


This is what is being expressed by those who condone, and justify these mv's.

Sorry, but no amount of trash talking will place God inside a KJVO box.


God can bless anyone in any situation, and I would never limit God and his power to do so. I mean God spoke through an ass at one point in history. However, just because God is not limited, He does, and has limited us, and restricts us, for our own benefit, into the strait and narrow path the leadeth unto life. Not a broad and wide gate:

But He's set forth those limits in His word...and He does NOT limit Himself to just the one version of Hiw very own word.

Are you forgetting JUST WHOSE WORD the Scriptures are? They're GOD'S word, which He permits us to share. His word is subject to HIM, not US. it's not guesswork, as KJVO is...many things God has SAID he would do or not do...and He PLAINLY told Amos that He'd do NOTHING w/o first telling His prophets. And NOWHERE did he tell any of His prophets that He was limiting Himself in the manners, languages, or dialects in which He presents His words for all mankind TO all mankind.

The KJVO myth is purely man-made, and, relatively speaking, of very recent origin. It was invented by a man who WAS A known cult official. It doesn't have ONE SPECK of Scriptural support, either for the idea, or the myth itself.

And, Michelle, you've made quite a conundrum for yourself. You say the MVs have errors, but you say the ONLY MEANS to check for those alleged errors - the Greek & Hebrew mss - are IRRELEVANT. therefore you're left with NOTHING to prove your alleged errors except your own circular reasoning, I.E. "They aint the KJV."

Sorry, Michelle, but no matter how much Chanel # 5 you pour into a garbage heap to make it smell nice, it remains garbage. You simply rant and post horse feathers, stuff which you simply cannot begin to prove, but expect us to believe anyway. Sorry, but no matter how many feathers you glue onto a horse, it still won't grow any feathers.

 

<snipped>

[ August 26, 2004, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: C4K ]

 

Comrade: Why don't we try to modernize Shakespeare's work?

Ransom: ‘Even the KJV-onlyists should be able to recognize the difference between an English literary work, written in English, and a Greek and Hebrew literary work, translated into English.’

Robycop: ‘Because he's dead, and his work was frozen in time with his death. No one else can write "Shakespeare", even if it happens to be his/her name.’

Dr Bob: ‘Has Shakespeare been revised over the years? OF COURSE.’

All these responses are correct. However, I would suggest that next time any of you are in Borders or Barnes and Noble that you take a good look at the Shakespeare section.

You will find that, along with the original 17th century forms of the Bard’s plays, there are several “new translation” editions available that remove archaisms, rephrase and generally modernize the “originals” into contemporary modern English style, structure, and syntax.

Apparently a slight “problem” affects our postmodern high school youth generation: they *can’t understand* the antiquated English and *need* a modern update just to get through their English class. Probably there is a lesson here for those who would understand if only they could understand.

 

And it is a shame when people try to force others to buy a dictionary of 18somethingortheother like David Cloud does to try and understand the antiquated language. Though I was raised using the KJV, and am quite comfortable with it, I can see where many are coming from. I was an avid reader, and read many works of old. Others aren't inclined that way and do need the updated versions. Just my humble opinion.

AVL1984

 

You will find that, along with the original 17th century forms of the Bard’s plays, there are several “new translation” editions available that remove archaisms, rephrase and generally modernize the “originals” into contemporary modern English style, structure, and syntax.

On top of this, in the generation previous to mine, Shakespeare was published in bowlderized editions that expurgated some of his more colourful humour deemed unsuitable for young eyes. (In fact the word "bowdlerize" comes from Thomas Bowdler, an English clergyman who published a "family-friendly" edition of Shakespeare 200 years ago.)

On the other end of the spectrum, go into a large bookstore and look at the pricier "critical" editions of Shakespeare published by Oxford and Arden, sitting next to the cheap paperback editions by Signet or other imprints. Somewhere nearby you should also be able to find the "First Folio" editions, repros of the first Shakespeare known to be printed and published. Indeed, textual criticism of the Bard is almost a thornier task than Biblical criticism, despite the fact he did all his work in the age of print.

 

And The Bard, unlike GOD, isn't around to supervise the updating of his work.

And God's literature is history, lessons, and commands, while Will's work is some history, all entertainment.

And Lady MacBeth got mad at her dog: "Out, Out, D@&%$d Spot!"