The Rapsure?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Downsville, Sep 12, 2003.

  1. Downsville

    Downsville
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    Do you believe there will be a rapture? Is it provable in scripture? Or do all rapture scriptures actually depict the Day of the Lord and not a so called rapsure. What do you believe?
     
  2. Ray Berrian

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    The Thessalonian Church was very insecure about what happened to their dead saints. God speaking through the Apostle Paul speaks of Christ coming for His saints in I Thessalonians 4:16.

    When the saints are taken home to Heaven they will all stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ. [II Cor. 5:10] After the saints have been evaluated for rewards, [I Cor. 3:13-15] we find Christ bringing with Him His saints. Where does He bring them?

    In Revelation 19 Christ comes with His saints from Heaven to bring judgment to the world of sinners who have been left behind at the rapture of the Christian Church. The Christian Church is all of those believers who trust in Christ as their only and personal Savior.

    At the rapture Christ comes FOR HIS SAINTS; at the Second Coming of Christ seven years later He comes WITH HIS SAINTS to destroy the unbelieving worldlings. {those who are not saved}
     
  3. BrianT

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    Where does scripture say they will be taken to heaven? It doesn't.

    Timing relative to the tribulation is not mentioned in this passage.

    Neither passage speaks of the other, you are tying two passages together that need not be.

    Including those who trust in Christ as their only and personal Saviour *during* the trib. [​IMG]

    He can come FOR his saints and WITH his saints at the same time. This distinction does not require nor imply a time difference.
     
  4. RaptureReady

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    Sure it does. When the rapture happens, the church will be called home to Heaven. Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
    The second coming occurs before the tribulation when those that are saved will be called home to Heaven(as stated above) and the second advent occurs after the tribulation when Christ comes with his saints to judge the world.
     
  5. Ray Berrian

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    Brian T,

    When you know your theology and the Bible the Word of God, you will not have such a disjointed view of eschatology. Study my friend.
     
  6. BrianT

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    Sure it does. When the rapture happens, the church will be called home to Heaven. Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, Rev 4:1 mentions heaven. So does Genesis 1:1. But neither mention a rapture/resurrection of the church.

    The second coming occurs before the tribulation when those that are saved will be called home to Heaven(as stated above) and the second advent occurs after the tribulation when Christ comes with his saints to judge the world. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, I already know the pretrib view. Your statement doesn't respond to mine, it just describes the pretrib view (which we already know). The second coming and the second advent do not have to be at different times. There, I refuted you. [​IMG]
     
  7. BrianT

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    All hail mighty Edward Irving, for rescuing the entire church from 1800 years of not knowing theology and the Bible, and thus repairing such a disjointed view of eschatology.

    I have studied. A lot. That's why I ended up leaving pretrib behind me.
     
  8. RaptureReady

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    Revelation chapters 1-3 talk about the 7 churches and chapter 4 has the church being called home to Heaven. After chapter 4 the church is not mentioned anymore.
     
  9. BrianT

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    Good so far...

    Sorry, that's not what scripture says. John was called to heaven, so he could see things so he could write them down so we could have the book of Revelation.

    Sure it is. Just the word "church" is not used, just as the word "antichrist" is not used. Is the antichrist therefore raptured as well?
     
  10. RaptureReady

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    So what says ye?
     
  11. Ray Berrian

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    It has been said, 'Yes, Rev 4:1 mentions heaven. So does Genesis 1:1. But neither mention a rapture/resurrection of the church.

    Ray is saying, 'You are correct about the two references above. There is a passage that does speak of a resurrected and raptured church and it is found in the Resurrection Chapter of the Bible, namely, I Corinthians fifteen.

    God speaking through Paul starts out by identifying who he is speaking to in his message. He says, 'Moreover, brethren . . . ' In verse 22-23 He tells us who will be resurrected in Christ and they will be the saved at the close of the age of grace and also those who believe in Jesus during the Great Tribulation. In verse 50 He tells us that neither the flesh and blood of sinner or saint will enter the Kingdom of God. In verse 51 God tells us who is going to be changed and transferred to Heaven. When Paul speaks of the fact that 'We shall not all sleep . . . ' he is speaking to the fact that only the saved go into the Kingdom of God. The word, 'sleep' always speaks of a Christian's death and never a sinner's death. The entire chapter is dealing with those who are Christ's people, the people of God. In verses 52-58 our Lord is sealing the truth that the saved, of all time, will be made incorruptible and we will put on immortality. Those who are immortal will be residents for all eternity in Heaven.

    A correlating Scripture that dovetails with I Corinthians 15 is I Thessalonians 4:13-18. Notice this passage is not speaking of a general resurrection of the dead for both sinners and Christians. Paul says in verse 13 'I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren concerning those who are asleep . . . ' In verse 15 both those who are alive on this earth and those who have died {fallen asleep} will rise in this first resurrection to eternal life above. Who is the Lord speaking about in Thessalonians? He is giving encouragement to Christians who feared as to what happened to those who died in their families and yet were a part of the hope of Christ. Almighty God has given His answer to this question that we must all face as to death. If we love Jesus we will rise again to spiritual and eternal life in Heaven. But who will rise when He comes for His church. Answer: Only 'the dead in Christ.' [I Thess. 4:16d] Yes, sinners will die and be dead but they will not be raised when He comes for His holy church. The Apostle John tells us very clearly when all of the lost ones will be raised by His mighty power. The answer is found in Revelation 20:5. Sinners are spoken of as ' . . . the rest of the dead . . .' and please note in a very impersonal way. Why was God so impersonal? Because sinners are not part of our family. Sinners are 'children of disobedience!' or in the words of the writer of Hebrews 'bastard' children. [Hebrews 12:8] The lost are spoken of by our Lord through Paul's letter to the Ephesian Church where He says, they are 'by their very nature the children of {His} wrath.' [Ephesians 2:2-3]

    All saved people will meet the Lord ' . . . in the clouds . . . . and so shall we ever be with the Lord.' Where is the Lord's residence and Kingdom? Shall we all agree that it will be Heaven? [I Thessalonians 4:17]

    All of the lost souls will be raised to life forever more but their destiny will be Hell, [Revelation 20:13-15] but only after the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth for 1,000 years, [Revelation 20:2,3,4,5,6,7] and the Great White Throne Judgment [Rev. 20:11] which will be the judgment day for those who are without Christ, meaning, they were not in Christ, like those in I Thessalonians 4:16d.

    Notice in Revelation 20:11-15 there are not the warm tones like the terminology 'the dead in Christ' or 'brethren' when relating to these lost, Hell doomed souls. Why? These were part of a separate resurrection from the dead, because their names were not written in the Book of Life. [Rev. 20:15]

    As a side bar, the resurrection of the just will not be a secret rapture. Why? Because the Lord is going to shout, [I Thess. 4:16] and the archangel will hereld his message and apparently he will sound the message with a trumpet. [vs. 16]. My son was a soloist in the Blue Coats Drum and Bugle Core {spelling error} in Ohio and I know a trumpet will make no uncertain sound. And would I be right to say that probably all cemeteries might have opened graves when He calls His people home? Who knows; but I will be among those loved by Christ, and only through His grace [Eph. 2:8-9] and Jesus' imputed righteousness. [Romans 4:6]
     
  12. Downsville

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    Hi
    Are these the saints HE returns with?

    JUDE 1 [13] Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.[14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,[15] To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
     
  13. Downsville

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    Hi Ray Berrian
    you wrote
    The Thessalonian Church was very insecure about what happened to their dead saints. God speaking through the Apostle Paul speaks of Christ coming for His saints in I Thessalonians 4:16.

    Thats what i meant about these raptsure scriptures actually being DAY of the LORD scriptures

    1THES.4[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    1Thes.4 clouds - trumpet - voice
    Zeph 1 clouds - trumpet - voice

    ZEHP.1 [14] The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.[15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,[16] A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

    Pretty clear to me that both scriptures are speaking of the same day. And Zeph. tells us which day that is.
     
  14. CatholicConvert

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    Brian T -

    Left premillenialism behind, eh?

    Good fer you!!! :D

    So what are ye now? By any chance are you Preterist?

    Jesus gave us some very specific "time indicators" in the Scriptures. I find it amazing that when these indicators are presented to premillenialists, they will do contortions to avoid the clear and obvious meaning of our Lord's words.

    For instance:

    28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    Jesus makes it quite clear that His parousia will occur before the death of all who were STANDING RIGHT THERE LISTENING TO HIM.

    I have seen some of the CRAZIEST attempts to nullify these plain words of the Lord and make them mean what they do not mean.

    Then there is this:

    Re 22:20 ΒΆ He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

    "Quickly" does NOT mean 2000+ years later. A turtle with leg cramps could come from Heaven quicker than that!! But once again, the force of these words is defuse by strange and odd attempts to make them say what they do not.

    Then there is the HORRENDOUS exegesis (or should I say isogesis) of 1 Corin. 15 and 1 Thess. 4. Both of these passages speak of being "caught up" and the language is identical, which means that St. Paul is describing the same event in two different places to two different parishes. Yet in 1 Corin. we see that the CONTEXT of his writing is NOT some "rapture of the church" but rather, a lengthy description of the resurrection!! It is completely at odds with any good system of interpretation to take these few verses out of the context of the whole chapter and put a spin on them which makes them say something entirely different.

    There is also the issue of the sacrifice which Jesus made upon the Cross of Calvary, being both Victim and Great High Priest. In order for a YOM KIPPUR sacrifice to be complete, according to the Jewish rite, the high priest HAD TO come back out of the Holiest of All to the people whom he had left behind. If he did not come out, the sacrifice was unaccepted by God and incomplete -- thus the nation was still in its state of sin and covenant breaking!!!.

    If Jesus has not returned to the earth, then His work is still incomplete, for it follows the type established in Jewish rite. Antetypes do not differ from types in such drastic ways. (Except, of course, in Protestant theology, and ESPECIALLY when typological fulfillment proves papist notions!! :D ). Jesus is the Great High Priest. According to Hebrews 9 and 10, He went into the "temple made without hands" in Heaven and offered YOM KIPPUR for the sins of the covenantal nation -- the people of God as a whole. For this sacrifice to be complete, He must be back among His people.

    And He is -- on every altar in every Catholic and Orthodox Church -- Flesh and Blood among us as our King.

    And someday, at the final return of Christ at the General Resurrection (John 5: 28 - 29) that which is unseen by us will be made visible to all.

    Cordially in Christ through the Theotokos,

    Brother Ed
     
  15. BrianT

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    You had me until your last sentence. 1 Cor 15 does not say the raptured go to heaven, you added that. The parallel passage says that we go "and so shall we ever be with the Lord", NOT "and so shall we ever be in heaven". If the rapture is not pretrib, this is still true: the Lord comes after the trib, saints are raptured/resurrected to him, and stay with him wherever he his (in premill, this is on the *earth*)

    Yes, you are right. But neither passage mention the event happening after the trib, and neither passage mention those raptured being taken to heaven.

    Another passage that dovetails is Matt 24:30-31.

    1 Cor 15:52-53
    - trump
    - resurrection/gathering

    1 Thess 4:16-17
    - the Lord coming
    - shout
    - presence of angels
    - trump
    - resurrection/gathering
    - clouds

    Matt 24:30-31
    - sign in heaven
    - the Lord coming
    - presence of angels
    - trump
    - gathering
    - clouds

    In fact, looking at those three passages, Matt 24:30-31 dovetails with 1 Thess 4:16-17 much more than 1 Cor 15:51-52 does. Why not connect those passages? I know why: because you don't like the implications, for Matt 24:29 (the verse right before) says this happens "Immediately after the tribulation of those days".

    If the time frame is after the trib, premillennialism (pretrib and posttrib) says the kingdom will be on the earth. Many amillers believe this as well.

    Ah, see? Earth. [​IMG]

    Awesome! [​IMG]
     
  16. Ray Berrian

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    Downsville,

    You are exact right. I had temporarily forgotten this verse from Jude. The same event is reaffirmed in Revelation 19:11-21 when Christ comes 'with His saints from Heaven' to destroy the wicked in His grand sweep of Divine judgment. Good insight!
     
  17. Ray Berrian

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    Downsville,

    Your passage in Jude is the Second Coming and completely separate by what Christ accomplishes when He comes for His Kingdom people in the event that theologians call the rapture. A unique mission; a different time.

    The term rapture may not be pleasing to some, but at least it gets the point across to students. The rapture comes first; the Second Coming follows seven years later.
     
  18. BrianT

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    Mostly. [​IMG] I'm not ready to reject it outright, but I lean heavily toward amill, yes.

    Partial, certainly.

    Actually, "quickly" describes the speed of the coming, not the time until the coming. For example, when I go to work I will go "quickly" (I like to push the speed limits a little ;) ), but I'm not going for some time.

    But I do know what you are getting at, because other passages don't use "quickly", but use "soon", "at hand", etc. That is one of the reasons I favor amill and accept partial preterism.

    Do you accept full preterism? How do you, if the Catholic Catechism speaks of a future coming, tribulation, etc? (CCC 673-677, etc.)

    It is my understanding that both take place at the same time, the "resurrection" for those who have died, while the "rapture" produces the same effect for those who have not (change of corruptible bodies for incorruptible). In other words, "We shall not all sleep [die physically], but we shall all be changed".

    Christ did show himself after the sacrifice was accepted. The apostles and other saw him, Thomas touched him, etc.

    I agree that Jesus is present in his church, and the kingdom is already present in that form. However, "Though already present in his Church, Christ's reign is nevertheless yet to be fulfilled 'with power and great glory' by the King's return to earth." (CCC 671)

    Ah, you're not full preterist after all. [​IMG] Perhaps I was misunderstanding you above.

    Brian
     
  19. BrianT

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    Where does it say "different time"? Why can't both missions be accomplished at the same time? Even pretrib sees multiple missions accomplished at the same time for other things (e.g. "destroy the antichrist" and "establish the earthly kingdom").

    In Jude 1:14, Christ comes with his saints. In Rev 19, Christ comes with his saints. *In 1 Thess 1:14, Christ comes with his saints.*

    Again, where is this "seven years later" stated in scripture?
     
  20. Ray Berrian

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    The Books of Thessalonians were written to comfort the saints as to the loss of their loved ones who were in Christ. I find no vengence concepts or devouring the wicked in these books. These books deal with our security in Christ as to our salvation and of His appearing in I Thess. 4:17 for His people.

    Catholics never hear a homily of a future, Great Tribulation [Matthew 24:21; Revelation 7:14] because is is not part of their theological motif. St. Augustine has stripped these fine people of any concept of this frightful and world wide event. They are taught that today is the Kingdom of God, and this is absolutely true, but they decline in believing that Christ will have a Millennial Kingdom of 1,000 years [Revelation chapter 20] on this earth after the rapture. [I Thess. 2:19; 3:13; 4:17; 5:2; 5:9; 5:23]

    Even some Protestant groups like the Reformed Baptists have been deluded by Augustinian/Calvinistic theology as to eschatology. {the doctrines of the end of time} Just think, Augustine's theology has filtered down these many centuries and people still have not figured out the truth, comparing Scripture with other portions of His Word. Satan will be at work until the end of human civilization; that's the way it will happen.

    There will be no 'appointment with wrath' [I Thess. 5:9] because this will take place after the gathering of the saints into Heaven and is only worthy of the lost wicked ones. In fact, he clearly points out that the Thessalonian believers, in this writing, have a destiny ' . . . to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.' [Also, 5:9]

    Your Zephaniah passage speaks of the the Second Coming of Christ where He deals exclusively with the wicked who have remained on the earth because they were not ready to meet Christ in the rapture.

    You used this reference and said, 'ZEHP.1 [14] The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.[15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,[16] A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.'

    Pretty clear to me that both scriptures are speaking of the same day. And Zeph. tells us which day that is.
     

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