The Rapture and the Church in Revelation

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Askjo, Feb 18, 2004.

  1. Askjo

    Askjo
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    Rev. 1-3 show the church.

    Rev. 4-21 show no church.

    Rev. 22 shows the church.

    When is the rapture?

    When is the 7 years tribulation?

    When will Jesus return?

    When will the church ministry finish?

    Will the Holy Spirit stay on the earth during the 7 years tribulation?

    Will the Holy Spirit leave from the earth before the Rapture is occured?
     
  2. Ed Edwards

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    In this context what do you think "church" means?

    In this context what do you think "rapture" means?

    In this context what do you think "tribulation" means?

    Reading what i get out of Romans 11,
    Jesus has two groups of the elect:

    1. Church age born-again Christian elect saints
    2. Jewish Israeli elect saints

    The Rapture is God's plan to gather together
    the Church age born-again Christian elect saints.

    The Tribulation period is God's plan to
    gather together the Jewish Israeli elect saints.

    General principle #1: God never abandons a covenent
    General principle #2: God's desire is that Israel be saved
    General principle #3: God never gives up
    General principle #4: God plans to WIN
    (AKA: divine will) and acts according to
    the plan

    Those who read may agree with each or
    the ones they chose of these 4.
    To me they all point to God's plan is this:

    To rapture the Church age born-again Christian elect saints out of this world at the end
    of the current age (the Church Age). After
    a 7-year tribulation period Jesus will usher
    in a physical millinnial Kingdom, Jesus will
    rule from a physical throne of David, in
    a physical Jerusalem and will rule the physical
    world.

    You are cordially invited (actually, if
    you aleady accepted Jesus as your
    eternal savior you may be
    already going) to the Millinnial Kingdom.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Grasshopper

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    Rev. 1-3 show the church.

    Rev. 4-21 show no church.

    God is not mentioned in the book of Esther.

    Rev. 22 shows the church.
    Rev 22 shows the New Covenant existence.

    When is the rapture?
    Never

    When is the 7 years tribulation?
    Past

    When will Jesus return?

    AD70. Matt. 26:64 says Caiaphus would see it. Did he?

    When will the church ministry finish?

    Never

    Will the Holy Spirit stay on the earth during the 7 years tribulation?

    Moot

    Will the Holy Spirit leave from the earth before the Rapture is occured?

    Moot

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Ed Edwards

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    Askjo: "When will Jesus return? "

    Grashopper: "AD70. Matt. 26:64 says Caiaphus would see it. Did he?"

    Interesting. When Jesus stood before Caiaphus, the
    Kingdom of God stood before Caiaphus in the form of Jesus.
    Yes, Caiaphus saw the Kingdom of God, but didn't
    recognize it. I believe when Jesus comes there
    will be the worlds worse earthquake ever. It will
    flatten all the mountains of the world and every
    island shall dissappear (see Revelation 16:20)
    Did that happen in 70AD?

    How does one say "Jesus came in 70AD" and
    the following scripture?
    2 Peter 3:3 (nKJV):

    knowing this first: that scoffers will come
    in the last days, walking according to their own lusts,
    4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming?
    For since the fathers fell asleep,
    all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Askjo

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    Why is the church absent between Rev. 4-21? Did not you see this?

    Correct!

    Grasshopper quoted:

    Jerusalem in 70 AD was destroyed, however how could Jesus save Jerusalem by His coming?
     
  6. donnA

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    If Jesus has already come again, then what are we doing? Why are we here? We have no purpose, we missed it by not being born at the right time. Why live like a chrisitan if Jesus has been here and gone, we have no hope, it's all ended.
    darn, going to get cigatettes and beer now I think.
    [sarcasam, I don't smoke or drink)
     
  7. Dave Taylor

    Dave Taylor
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    Askjo wrote:
    OK, Let's look at your first 3 points.


    Rev. 1-3 only shows letters to 7 local church congregations found in Asia Minor circa the 1st Century AD. What's your point?

    Rev. 4-21 does not use the term 'church'.

    However, a more important question would be,

    "Who are the faithful Christians found both in Heaven and on the Earth in chapters 4-21"?

    Rev. 22 uses the term church again, once, and in testimony of the things written in the entire book of Revelation to the churches. Again, what is your point?
     
  8. Dave Taylor

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    Askjo,
    You might want to consider these trivia facts about where the word 'church' is also found in Scriptures; since you seem to have spent some time researching where that term is, and is not used in the book of Revelation.

    Did you know?

    </font>
    • The word 'Church' is not found in the following New Testament Chapters:</font>
    • 26 of the 28 chapters of Matthew</font>
    • "Any" of the 16 chapters of Mark</font>
    • "Any" of te 24 chapters of Luke</font>
    • "Any" of the 21 chapters of John</font>
    • 09 of the 28 chapters of Acts</font>
    • 15 of the 16 chapters of Romans</font>
    • 13 of the 16 chapters of 1 Corinthians</font>
    • 11 of the 13 chapters of 2 Corinthians</font>
    • 05 of the 06 chapters of Galatians</font>
    • 03 of the 06 chapters of Ephesians</font>
    • 02 of the 04 chapters of Philippians</font>
    • 02 of the 04 chapters of Colossians</font>
    • 03 of the 05 chapters of 1 Thessalonians</font>
    • 02 of the 03 chapters of 2 Thessalonians</font>
    • 04 of the 06 chapters of I Timothy</font>
    • 03 of the 04 chapters of 2 Timothy</font>
    • 02 of the 03 chapters of Titus</font>
    • 11 of the 13 chapters of Hebrews</font>
    • 04 of the 05 chapters of James</font>
    • "Any" of the 05 chapters of I Peter</font>
    • "Any" of the 03 chapters of 2 Peter</font>
    • "Any" of the 05 chapters of 1 John</font>
    • "Any" of the 01 chapters of 2 John</font>
    • "Any" of the 01 chapters of Jude</font>
    • 18 of the 22 chapters of Revelation</font>
    Do you realize what that means?

    The word 'Church' is not found in 215 of the 259 Chapters of the New Testament.

    Only 44 chapters of the 249 chapters of the New Testament use the word 'Church'.

    That tells us that 83% of the New Testament Chapters do not use the word 'Church'.

    Should we now, draw any conclusions or speculations from that?

    I sure hope not!

    Should you stop drawing similar conclusions from the Book of Revelation; and its chapters?

    I sure hope so!
     
  9. BrianT

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    The church ISN'T absent between chapters 4-21. The *words* "church"/"churches" are, but lack of use of a word doesn't mean the absence of what that word represents. The word "Antichrist" is not in those chapters either.

    Even when "church"/"churches" is used in Revelation, it *always* refers to *specific* congregations, and never the universal church.
     
  10. Tim

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    If one says there's no "church" in Rev. 4-21, surely that one must also confess there's no "antichrist" in Daniel 9.

    Just trying to be consistent,

    Tim
     
  11. Grasshopper

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    That is a pitiful attempt Ed. I expected better from you. If a preterist interpreted scripture like that you would rip them to shreds. Lets take a look at the verses in context:

    First who is Jesus speaking to:

    Matt 26:57 And they that had taken Jesus led him away to the house of Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were gathered together.

    What exactly did He say they would see:

    64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.

    I see no mention of the Kingdom Ed. But I do see that He told them they would see His coming on the clouds. So Ed did they see His coming on the clouds?

    Yes it did happen. Lets go back and look at how the Holy Spirit describes the coming judgement on Nineveh:

    Context:

    Nahum1:1 The burden of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.

    description of judgement:

    5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt ; and the earth is upheaved at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

    So are we to take the OT as metaphoric/apocalytic, yet take the same language and force it to be literal in the NT?

    Did judgement not come down on Jerusalem and the Jews?

    Well Ed, since we both know that Acts 2 and Hebrews 1:1,2 put the "last days" in the 1st century we can safely say the scoffers were of the 1st century as well.

    Why were they scoffers? Because they were expecting His coming. Obviously they expected it in their lifetime. Where would they get such an idea that they would see His coming? Maybe from the apostles?

    As the apostles are preaching the New Covenant the scoffers look around and see thing going on as they always had. The Temple still stood, sacrifices continued, Pharasies were doing their thing. Little did they know that God was getting ready to destroy the last remnants of the Old Covenant and fully usher in the New. Safe to say there were no more scoffers after AD70.


    Why are we here? How about to get busy and grow the Kingdom instead of waiting aroud for an escape of our problems. Is that biblical?(John 17)

    Hope? Is not the reality better than a hope of the reality? Is it better to hope to be cured of cancer or to be cured of cancer? Does a cured man say," I sure miss hoping for a cure"?

    Proverbs 8:12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick; But when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

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    Grasshopper: "Safe to say there were no more scoffers after AD70."

    I was suggesting you were such a scoffer.
    Your Justification: Jesus is NOT coming back
    cause Jesus done already came back.
    Yes, 2 Peter 3 condemns those who
    say Jesus came in 70AD.
     
  13. Ed Edwards

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    Grasshopper: "How about to get busy and grow the Kingdom instead of waiting aroud for an escape of our problems."

    I know of no one "waiting around for an
    escape of our problems".
    I know lots of people busy growing
    the Kingdom.
     
  14. Grasshopper

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    Could you show me where Jesus condems those who say Jesus came in AD70 since it was still future at that time.

    Can you not respond to the scriptures I used above? Did Caiaphus see Christ coming on the clouds?
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    No. Why did you think i might be able to
    find one? Did someone claim Jesus condems
    those who say Jesus came in AD70?

    I get paid $40 an hour
    to research for others. I spent three
    hours researching Caiaphus. I'll send you
    a bill for $120 [​IMG]

    As near as i can figure, Caiaphus was NOT
    alive in 70AD therefore did not
    see Jesus coming on the clouds.
    Caiaphus was high priest 25-27AD
    or maybe 18-36AD (he got fired in
    Dec 36AD, that rounds to 27AD).

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Grasshopper

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    My bad. You said: Yes, 2 Peter 3 condemns those who say Jesus came in 70AD

    I should have said: Could you show me where 2 Peter 3 condems those who say Jesus came in AD70 since it was still future at that time.

    Thief. [​IMG]

    You figure....? What, no proof, no death certificate?

    Jesus says: "Ye shall see me coming on the clouds"

    Ed says: " Caiaphus was NOT alive in 70AD therefore did not see Jesus coming on the clouds.

    Seems we have a problem. Do I trust Jesus or Ed? Ed or Jesus? Think I'll stick with Jesus.
     
  17. Ed Edwards

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    I believe the Bible is the
    inerrant written words of God.
    It is nonsense for me to
    believe that my understanding
    of all the Bible is inerrant.

    I do not have time to teach you
    stuff you don't want to know about
    2 Peter 3. You can read it for
    yourself and figure it out for yourself.
    What should you do about 2 Peter 3
    on Sunday, 22 Feb 2004? Please don't
    publicaly answer this question, it
    is for self-inspection only.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Grasshopper

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    Ditto [​IMG]

    Oh, but I do want to know. This is why I ask for scripture reference. I spent most of my life just believing what I was told by preachers and teachers. I never bothered to dig for myself to see if it was true. I've learned over the last few years that Baptist are guilty of "traditional thinking" just as much as Catholics.

    So when it comes to a verse like Matt 26:64 if it doesn't mean the obvious, then it is up to us to disprove the obvious meaning scriptually. I have yet to find an adequate answer to disprove Caiaphus seeing Jesus come on the clouds. You seem to think I'm am close-minded, not so. I use to believe just like you. It was in fact my open mind that led me out of Pre-Mill. However, I am still open and will move in any direction that the scriptures lead. Will you?
    Actually it doesn't really matter to me which eschatological view is correct, I would just like to know it. Preterism, though difficult to swallow because of tradition, to me is the most biblical and consistant.

    As far as scoffers in the "last days" go, I believe scripture teaches the last days were in the 1st century you believe they have lasted for 2000 years and continue. So is it your view that scoffers have existed throughout history and do not refer to a specific amount of years or specific time-period?
     
  19. Ed Edwards

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    IMHO, those who believe that Jesus
    came in 70AD to get anybody, are skoffers
    after the meaning of 2 Peter 2.
    Again, i don't have time for this conversation.
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    1. Who says Jesus came to get anybody in AD70?

    2. Again you believe a 2000+ years long last days. So it is impossible for you to explain those scoffers and to pinpoint them.

    3. If you don't have time for this discussion, quit responding.

    4. 64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.

    Why didn't he see it? Can anyone explain?
     

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