The "Rapture". When????

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by AVL1984, Aug 17, 2004.

  1. AVL1984

    AVL1984
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    I have studied this subject off and one since I was in college in the early 1980's at MBBC in Watertown, Wisconsin. At that time I knew of several different views of the subject

    1) Pre-Tribulation Rapture

    2) Mid-Tribulation/Pre-Wrath

    3) Post Trib Rapture

    I've heard there are other views on the subject, though I've not explored any of them. Please, discuss the views above using scriptures to prove your argument. And if anyone knows of the newest views on the subject, please, bring them in as I'd like to hear them as well. I know this is one of those potentially "divisive" subject, so, please, keep it as civil as possible. Your input will be greatly appreciated. [​IMG]

    AVL1984 [​IMG]
     
  2. Ed Edwards

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    There are 58 threads on this Forum (not counting
    the archives) concerning Rapture. What do
    you want different here?

    All these various Rapture timing theories
    use exactly the same scriptures but understand
    them in different ways.
    Really, what do you want?
    If you want to cut out your research time
    -- you may have a poor excuse.
    See, you are asking us to repost what we
    have already posted, so you might be leading
    us astray :confused:

    -------------------
    Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

    0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
    1. rapture/resurrection
    2. Tribulation time
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    Postrib pre-mill outline:

    0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
    2. Tribulation time
    1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    (this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    Postrib a-mill outline:

    0. church age continues - is the same as: &lt;-- you are here
    2. Tribulation time - is the same as: &lt;-- you are here
    4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom &lt;-- you are here
    1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    (this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
    5. new heaven & new earth

    Peterist a-mill outline:

    0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
    1. rapture/resurrection &lt;done happened
    2. Tribulation time &lt;-- or maybe you are here
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event &lt;done happend
    4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom &lt;done happened
    5. new heaven & new earth &lt;-- or maybe you are here

    Ed recommends the pretrib pre-mill
    view as aligning most nearly with Holy Scripture.
    Ed recommends:
    get Rapture Ready!
    Stay Rapture Ready!
     
  3. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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  4. AVL1984

    AVL1984
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    Let me see...I was not aware that there were "58 threads on this forum so far counting the archives". Why are you such a "smartenheimer"? Gosh, I know to avoid your answers in the future.

    AVL1984 :rolleyes:
     
  5. AVL1984

    AVL1984
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    Since you're "Amen"ing Ed, can you prove the rapture is near? Seems to me I recall Paul saying it was the last days then....2000 years ago.

    AVL1984

    :confused: [​IMG]
     
  6. dean198

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    No where does the scripture separate the second coming and the rapture. Paul the apostle is clear that the day of Jesus' second coming will be marked by the angels pouring out eternal damnation upon the ungodly, and he plainly told Christians to look for that day, and further told them that that day (of his coming and out gathering together to meet him) will not come until the man of sin is revealed first. See 2 Thessalonians chapters 1 and 2.

    Nor will the rapture be a secret event, known only by the evidence of the saints disappearing. In fact Paul says that at the rapture ‘The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a SHOUT, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMPET of God.’ This has all of the marks of a public appearing. Incidentally we are told that the rapture trumpet is not the last trump, and that there will be another trump at another second coming, as recorded in Matthew 24, and that following that there will be another seven trumpets.

    The rapture is at the second coming - Paul says, ‘Now we beseech you brethren, by the coming of our Lord, and by our gathering together unto him…’

    We are told that the rapture is not ‘the coming of the our Lord’, yet Paul puts them both together and calls it ‘the day of Christ’ and ‘that day.’ (2 Thes.2:2-3). Further Paul says ‘We that are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord’ (1 Thes. 4:15). So we are left with two second comings. Twice he descends from heaven, the first time with the last trumpet and the second time with another trumpet (presumably). Yes his coming will be as a thief in the night. But Peter adds, ‘in the which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with a fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.’ Then why as a thief? Because it will come upon the world un-expectantly. But Paul says that that day will not come as a thief to the saved, for they are not ignorant of the times and the seasons that that day should overtake them as a thief. But it will overtake the wicked as a thief. 1 Thes. 5:1-4. Why? Because of the wrath that will be revealed in that day as the angels destroy the wicked in flaming fire, in sudden destruction. 2 Thes. 1:7-9. This is the wrath of God – angels coming in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction. Not tribulations. We are appointed to tribulation, but not to wrath. When will they be punished with everlasting desctruction? Verse Ten of the first chapter of the second epistle to the Thessalonians – “When he shall come to be glorified in his saints”
     
  7. Johnv

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    Jesus said no one knows, not even He does. If Jesus doesn't have any idea, then why do we think we might have an idea? No one has an idea when these things will occur. It may be tomorrow. It may be 3000 years from now.

    My advice: Plan your physical life as though it won't happen for 3000 years. But live your spiritual life as though it were going to happen tomorrow.
     
  8. AVL1984

    AVL1984
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    Jesus said no one knows, not even He does. If Jesus doesn't have any idea, then why do we think we might have an idea? No one has an idea when these things will occur. It may be tomorrow. It may be 3000 years from now.

    My advice: Plan your physical life as though it won't happen for 3000 years. But live your spiritual life as though it were going to happen tomorrow.
    </font>[/QUOTE]This is basically the conclusion I have come to, also. Nobody knows when it is going to happen. Yet, we have preachers every week getting up in their pulpits using this as a scare tactic to try and bring people to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. I'm not saying that this is necessarily bad, but I believe it leads to many false professions based on fear rather than conviction. The church I was raised in was a dispensational "split-rapture" church. Never could get a grasp on that type of a doctrine. Yet, they called themselves "Pre-trib, Pre-millineal". In college I found that I held more to the mid-trib, pre-wrath position. I finally, as I was in the ministry came to the conclusion that if Paul thought the days he was living in were the last days, and the other apostles also, then shouldn't we be even more aware of the possibility today? So, I live each day the best I can for the Lord, plan as if I was going to live to be 100, yet try to stay "fessed up, prayed up, witnessed up" as much as I can.

    AVL1984 [​IMG]
     
  9. Daniel David

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    Paul believed in the doctrine of immenency. That is, the return of the Lord is NEAR. It could happen at any moment. Believers are to purify themselves with this hope.

    Jesus separated his return and the rapture. All you have to do is compare John 14 with Matthew 24.
     
  10. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace
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    When? I can definitely, positively unconditionally state that it WILL be sometime after this moment in time, assuming that this post does get logged in; 1 minute, 1day, 1 year or maybe even 1 millenum + ;) [​IMG] [​IMG]

    It WILL occur though, without a doubt!
     
  11. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother David Daniel -- Preach it! [​IMG]

    ---------------------------

    \o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

    \o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
    Now we beseech you, brethren,
    by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    and by our gathering together unto him,

    Two events mentioned here:
    1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    2) our gathering together unto him

    Titus 2:13 (KJV1873):
    Looking for that blessed hope,
    and the glorious appearing of the great God
    and our Saviour Jesus Christ

    Two events mentioned here:
    1) blessed hope
    2) the glorious appearing of the great God
    and our Saviour Jesus Christ


    These two events are mentioned seperately
    throughout the Bible. The Rapture, which
    was a mystery in the O.T. is now mentioned
    in the N.T.

    Rapture Passages (the gathering, the blessed hope):

    Matthew 24:31-44
    Mark 13
    Luke 21
    John 14:1-3
    Romans 8:19
    1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 15:51-53, 16:22
    Philippians 3:20-21, 4:5
    Colossians 3:4
    1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:19, 4:13-18, 5:9,23
    2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3
    1 Timothy 6:14
    2 Timothy 4:1,8
    Hebrews 9:28
    1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4
    1 John 2:28-3:2
    Jude 1:21
    Revelation 2:25

    Second Advent Passages
    (Jesus comes again in power and glory
    to defeat the antichrist and set up the
    millinnial kingdom):

    Daniel 2:44-45, 7:9-14, 12:1-3
    Zechariah 12:10, 14:1-15
    Matthew 13:41
    Matthew 24:15-30, 26:64
    Mark 13
    Luke 21
    Acts 1:9-11, 3:19-21
    1 Thessalonians 3:13
    2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2:8
    1 Peter 4:12-19
    2 Peter 3:1-14
    Jude 1:14-15
    Revelation 4-19

    [​IMG]

    ----------------------------
    Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
    with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
    to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
    Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

    1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
    (John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
    1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

    2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
    2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
    (Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

    3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
    (1 Thess 4:16-17)
    3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
    (Rev 19:6-14)

    4R. end of the Gentile Age
    (Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
    4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
    (Revelation 19)

    5R. Tribulation period begins
    5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

    6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
    (1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
    6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
    (Rev 6:12-17)

    7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
    (1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
    7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
    (Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

    8R. Focus: Lord and Church
    (1 Thess 4:13-18)
    8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
    (Romans 11)

    9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
    9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

    10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
    10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
    judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
    judgement.

    11R. Time of joy.
    11SC. Time of sorrow.
    --------------------------------

    Things that are different are
    not the same ;)
     
  12. dean198

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    What you missed out -

    What day? He tells us -

    "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him"

    Two separate events? No! He is continuing to speak of the "that day" which he already was talking about.

    "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

    See - one event....the day of Christ. One event, called the day of Christ, in which he returns, destroys the wicked, and gathers his saints to him.

    "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

    What day? The day of Christ. The day they are waiting for. The day he destroys those who trouble them. The day Christ comes back and the saints are gathered. And the man of sin must come before that day.


    Later on you give 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 as second coming verses. Go read them again! This happens when he comes to be glorified in his saints, and the rapture verses you give are a continuation of speaking about the same day.


    Yes, the same event. It is the blessed hope, and the glorious appearing. Christians are to look for both, because they happen at the same time! The grace of God teaches believers to look for these.


    How can you separate verse 30 from 31? -

    Another "rapture" passage you give is 2 Timothy 4:1,8

    Look what it says:

    " charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom"

    This is the judgement of 2 Thes. 1 - the flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God.


    Look at 1 Thes 4:

    Is this the description of an invisible event? Is it not called the coming of the Lord? God never separated the rapture and the coming of the Lord at all.


    Why can't the heavenly armies be angels?


    Jesus will come back in like manner.....in the clouds, visibly, not secretly....he will descend from heaven, as he does at the rapture.


    Those verses say nothing of coming back with his bride.

    Why can't there be tribulation at the end of the gentile age?


    You might want to notice that there are no verses for this.


    Yes, but what wrath? The fiery judgement when those that know not God are destroyed with everlasting destructing...this is the wrath of God, not persecution which all true Christians are appointed to.

    What about the 'peace and safety' sign?

    "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."


    What about the sign of the apostacy and the man of sin?

    "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him [...] that day [singular] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be
    revealed"


    "Even so have these [the Jews] also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy."

    Though whose mercy will they obtain mercy? The church! What do you think the word Zion refers to?

    The world is deceived before - that is what must come to pass before the day of Christ, not after!


    No judgement mentioned?

    No scripture.

    Dean
     
  13. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    I have a SIMPLE question for you.

    Please show us WHERE A verse in the Bible saying rapture will be occur 3 1/2 years or 7 years earlier BEFORE Christ's coming???

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  14. DeafPosttrib

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    Dean,

    AMEN! [​IMG] Preaching it!!

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    YEs, you always
    ask that question.

    1. You never accept my answer.
    2. You never understand that a simple
    question can have a complex answer.
    (I guess a complex question could have
    a simple answer)
    3. You never accept God's answer.
    See you are putting demands upon God which
    just do not compute; and such Designer
    of the Universe critiques are NOT good
    for the soul.
    4. Nevertheless, because others are looking,
    here is the answer that you don't like,
    can't understand, and will not accept.

    ------------------
    I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period.
    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath).
    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)

    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
    in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

    "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
    shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
    And the people of the prince who is to
    come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
    The end of it shall be with a flood,
    And till the end of the war desolations
    are determined.
    27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
    many for one week; But in the middle
    of the week He shall bring an end
    to sacrifice and offering. And on
    the wing of abominations shall be
    one who makes desolate, Even until
    the consummation, which is determined,
    Is poured out on the desolate."

    Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
    refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
    to the "prince that shall come".
    Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
    are divided in the middle by the abomination
    of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
    to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
    FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

    But I would not have you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
    that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
    no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
    again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
    will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of
    the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
    unto the coming of the Lord shall
    not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
    heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
    and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain
    shall be caught up together with them
    in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
    and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
    1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

    1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
    ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so cometh as
    a thief in the night.
    3 For when they shall say,
    Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
    cometh upon them, as travail upon
    a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
    that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    5 Ye are all the children of light,
    and the children of the day: we are
    not of the night, nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
    and they that be drunken are drunken
    in the night.
    8 But let us, who are of the day,
    be sober, putting on the breastplate
    of faith and love; and for an helmet,
    the hope of salvation.
    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 Who died for us, that, whether
    we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
    11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
    and edify one another, even as also ye do.

    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)
    FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

    Now we beseech you, brethren,
    by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
    or be troubled, neither by spirit,
    nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
    as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
    for that day shall not come, except
    there come a falling away first,
    and that man of sin be revealed,
    the son of perdition;

    I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period.
    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath).
    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)

    ------------------

    [​IMG]
     
  16. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Since you're "Amen"ing Ed, can you prove the rapture is near? Seems to me I recall Paul saying it was the last days then....2000 years ago.

    AVL1984

    :confused: [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Bro Ed is doing a fine job! He doesn't need my help.
     
  17. Ed Edwards

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    Brother AVL1984: I now see representatives of the
    four positions that i noted in my initial post.
    This could get intersting, if folks don't run off,
    wander off, or get flammed off (at least one of these
    generally happens).

    Here are the BIG [​IMG] differences between the
    futurist, modern dispensational, premillinnial pretrib view and the
    futurist, modern dispensational, premillilnnial postrib view:

    1. The meaning of the first "and" in Matthew 24:31
    2. The meaning of the "and" in 2 Thessalonians 2:1
    3. The meaning of the "first" in Revelation 20:5
    (well, maybe it is the meaning of "and" in Revelation 20:4)
    4. The meaning of "day" when it appears, especially
    "Day of the Lord"

    Three simple words.
    All three appear together for the first time in Genesis 1:5.
    People argue about those also (except you can't argue about
    Genesis (Creation) in this Forum)

    I've already shown that the 70th week of Daniel
    is a week of seven days, each one year in length.
    So the Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, is
    one day = 7-years long. In God's economy, "day" means
    the appropriate time. In God's economy, "hour" means the
    appropriate time. In God's economy, 1 day = 1 hour.
    In God's economy, 1 day = 1,000 years (2 Peter 3:8).
    Please do not agree with this paragraph if you have
    scripture contradicting it. Please do not ignore this
    paragraph, all my following arguments are based upon it.

    BTW, I also know of the 48-hour day which doesn't even
    get into the dictionary. A 24-hour named "day" lasts
    for 24-hours if you are at one place on the earth.
    If you look at such a named day (like 18 Aug 2004) at
    all points on earth, it lasts for 48-hours.
    There are also 12 hour days, 8 hour days, and
    other kinds of days in the dictionary. Usually in prophecy
    "day" refers though to "the appropriate time."

    [​IMG] - Baptist wavy, both feet firmly on
    the ground and waves only one hand at a time
     
  18. Ed Edwards

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    my bad, i punched "add reply" instead of
    "URL". Oops.
     
  19. Ed Edwards

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    Let me see...I was not aware that there were "58 threads on this forum so far counting the archives". Why are you such a "smartenheimer"? Gosh, I know to avoid your answers in the future.

    AVL1984 :rolleyes:
    </font>[/QUOTE]You should have read the current last
    post here:

    Imminency - Not Found in the Bible

    Read the post of Member #8743 near the end of page 3 of this
    most recent Rapture discussion. That would
    have warned you.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
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    Sorry, my computer said it did not post,
    but it did post. What I said will show up
    in the next post:
     

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