The "Rapture". When????

Amen, Brother Dclark14 -- Preach it!

I've added this to my list of
Rapture/Second Coming differences:

12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).

Thank you for helping me enhanse my
pretribulation rapture presentation.

 

I'm wondering if in the spirit of the lead-in post
if it wouldn't be better if we each delineate our
own eschatological viewpoint (as opposed to trying
to tear down that of someone else)?
We need to show the scriptures as well.
I see already that a preterist and an a-millinnialist
have posted. Come on guys, what do you believe.
Don't need to tear my viewpoint down.
Remember, my presentatins have already been
attacked (by better folks than you :eek) and get
better each time as they are enhansed.

So try it folks, show from the scripture why your
eschatological viewpoint is correct. Don't just
put down scripture, cause each of us sees it
different.

 

I looked over there
for awile. The assigning of events
to "fit" the prophecies of Revelation -
sorry, i've seen better historicism from
the Baha'i.

Say, I'm still looking for some hard
data on the rise and fall of the
Nestorian (or East Syrian) Church.
Probably about 500AD-1000AD it was the
largest Church in the world, until
overtaken by Islam. But the Orthodox
Curches didn't let the RCC (Roman Catholic
Church) know about the Nestorians.
The RCC didn't let the Protestants know
about the Nestorians (except they were
a heterical sect). Probably up to the
time of thir martyrdom (~1100-1200) --
crushed between the rising Islam
world and The MongolHorde -- the
Nestorians were the most faithful witness
on the face of the earth.

I fault the historicist for not taking
this group into account. Seems that all
Protestants still hoover under the shadow
of the Pope. In fact, ever heard how
the AntiChirst is the RCC and the False
Prophet is the Protestants?

(Not to mention the 7th Day Adventist
idea that the mark of the beast (MOB) is
Sunday Worship)

As for E.B. Elliot (1793-1875), i've
got a better source of information
from DANIEL AND THE REVELATION (Uriah Smith,
1897). Remember, these guys wrote back
when the Ottoman Empire was north of
Jerusalem (instead of Russia, like now).
These people didn't see that a secular
Israel would come to the land

 

Seems I write more than i can ever type.
HEre is somethint handwrit on 17 Aug 2004:

------------------------------
Dean198: "Nor will the rapture be
a secret event ... "

Amen Brother Dean198 you totally discombubolated
that secret rapture strawman!

Your violation of the Prime Directive of
Bulletin Boards is noted. I don't recall
anybody here at Baptist Board ever claiming
a secret rapture. But did you ever
totally discombubolate that secret rapture strawman!

BTW, for the newbies:
The Bulletin Board Prime Directive:

Read before you Post

------------------------------
Such a writing tends to become sarcastic
real quick. Sorry. I'll rather discuss
than fuss. Who knows, i might learn
something someday.

 

I used the word 'secret' to describe the idea of an essentially invisible return of Christ - whereas the Bible says he will descend from heaven. You may believe that he descends invisibly, but I believe Jesus will be seen, and that he will call attention to his coming with a shout, and with the trumpet of God, so that everybody hears him. Then believers will be caught up to meet him. I don't believe that he is coming invisibly just to snatch away believers, and then not be seen for another seven years.
Dean

 

Christ Jesus CAN, HAS, and WILL make a "secret" appearance in the future. He will ALSO make more OPEN appearances, as he ALSO did in the past.

Luke 1-24 (open in the past)
Acts 9,22 (secret in the past)
Acts 26, 1 Tim.6-2 Tim.4 (secret in the future)
Matt.24 (open in the future)
Rev.19 (open in the future)

 

Carl,

I think, I do remember you long time ago, from another discussion forum.

Your logically discuss about Christ's coming, either one is visible or secert.

Pretrib teaches at the rapture will be a secert coming, no unsaved person in the world shall see Christ appear in the sky.

I understand what your point of Acts chapter 9, 22, and 26 saying it is a secert.

Acts 9, 22, 26 have do nothing with the coming. These are discuss about the 'revelation'of Jesus Christ toward to a person - Paul. Revelation means supernatural communicate between God and man by through dream, vision, communicate.

Apostle John is the perfect example for Book of Revelation. John saw many things in his vision, as he was moving by the Holy Spirit. Also, Jesus Christ talked with John at Patmos Isalnd through the revelation.

Acts 9, 22, & 26 talking about Christ appeared to Paul, to woke him up, for stop persecute the Church. And these caused Paul converted to salvation by the revelation. Also, in Galatians 1:12 tells us, Paul received the Word of God comes from the revelation of Jesus Christ, and he was taught by Christ in the desert for 3 years - Gal. 1:17-18.

What's your point of 1 Timothy chapter 6 talk about relate with 'secert'?

Notice 1 Tim. 6:14 says, "until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ." Is 'appearing', a secert coming?

Appearing sames as revelation. Pretrib saying the revelation of Jesus Christ is second coming - 7 years later after the rapture. Notice in 1 Peter 1:13 - "...hope to the END for the grace that is to be brought unto you AT the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Paul tells us, that we hold our hope and looking forward for the revelation of Jesus Christ, he speaks of our hope eager looking for the second coming of Christ at the end.

Revelation have two different definitions. First, it means supernatural power communicate between God and man, through vision, dream, etc. Second, it means, to be revealed or manifest by appearing.

Is a word, 'revelation', a secert coming?

Matt. 24:30 & Rev. 1:7 telling us, Christ's coming shall not be a secert, every person of the world shall see Christ appearing in the clouds at his coming.


To any person, I am waiting for you to show me prove one verse saying rapture will be occur either 3 1/2 years or 7 years earlier BEFORE Christ's coming. Please prove it.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Rapture -- It's going to happen today! (possibly, keep your eyes to the sky). Are you prepared? Are you really??? Do you know for sure that if the Lord returned today, that you will go to heaven??? These are the most important questions of all your life!

 

Deafpostrib,

The appearance of Jesus Christ TO Paul DOES have to do with his coming. HE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN and APPEARED to Paul. See Acts 9 and 1 Cor.15.

Paul is the PATTERN for those which should HEREAFTER believe. (1 Tim.1) That's you.

The REVELATION of Jesus Christ IS an appearance of Christ. (Gal.1, Acts 9, 1 Cor.15)

My POINT is the "same appearing" which ONLY Paul saw, will be SEEN again by him, ALONG WITH US. That's the ONLY APPEARANCE he ever wrote about for the body of Christ, for that is the ONLY APPEARANCE that he ever saw. (Secret) As you said, you UNDERSTOOD.

Don't MISTAKE pretrib for preweek as many do. The PRETRIB rapture is MIDWEEK.

Revelation is an appearance in Gal.1. It is an appearance in Titus 2, 1 Tim.6, 2 Tim.4, etc.

You're repeating what I have said. There are TWO TYPES of appearances of Christ, secret and open.

The gathering occurs BEFORE the day of the Lord (1 Thess.4-5), which is CONNECTED to the revelation of the man of sin AT THE MIDST OF THE WEEK. (2 Thess.2)

There's two chapters with verses.

Good day.

In Christ Jesus,

Carl
Psalm 149:6

 

Carl,

We know, Christ did visited on earth for 40 days after his resurrection. He appeared toonly disciples in secert. And there was about 500 people witnessed Christ alive. Disciples saw Christ ascend into the heaven. Jesus walked on earth for 40 days, it do nothing with second coming.

Christ came down by the 'revelation' to Paul, for the purpose is to rebuke him for persecuted His Church. Paul converted for salvation. Your word, saying, 'type' for "secert coming" is a logical.

Christ's first advent was for to SAVED the world to died on the cross. Christ's second advent is for to JUDGE the world.

Early Church never saying anything about Acts chapter 9, 22, & 26 is a 'type' of "secert coming" supports pretrib or "midweek rapture", because none of them teaching on them. You are the only one person to have own interpreting verses to apply the type of "secert coming".

And I do not agree with your belief of "midweek rapture".

Daniel 9:24-27 do nothing with the supposed future either 3 1/2 years or 7 years of Tribulation period. The context of Dan. 9:24-27 discuss about the promise of the coming of Messiah for salvation is Calvary, 70th Week or 490 years already fulfilled by Calvary, that was 490 years after Daniel wrote it.

Also, during Old Testament, Christ did visited earth several times, visited Abraham, Moses, and prophets. Also, sent angels to earth to give the message, or to do ministry prophets or saints. These do nothing with the advent of Christ.

Throughout of the Old Testament talked about the prophecies about the first advent for salvation - Calvary.

Christ has a reason to appeared to face with Saul of Acts chapter 9, to rebuked him for persecution His Church. That was part of the revelation of Christ. Also, Christ has a purpose to use Paul, for to spread the GOSPEL to the Gentiles for salvation.

There is no split comings find anywhere in the New Testament. Many passages in the N.T. talk of the only one future coming. Early Church understood the Bible telling them, Christ is coming again at the end of the world. None of them were teaching "secert coming" or split(two phases) of Christ's coming till only a little over century ago, that doctrine is a new teaching on pretribulation.

I am sure that lot of pretribs are aware of the Bible. They know rapture always include second coming, no way they could afford to deny rapture is invlove second coming. Yet, they doing their own guesswork on the timing of rapture.

I do not accept any guesswork, it is a dangerous to guess the scriptures. We have to accept the facts and let what the scriptures say, not by our own opinion. Accept and believe what it saying.

Bible always teaching us rapture includes Christ's coming same time.

Also, rapture will not be occur yet, till the resurrection of the saints must be occur first - 1 Thess 4:16-17.

Rev. 13:7, Rev. 20:4-5 tell us, the saints(Christians) shall be face Antichrist and presecution first BEFORE the resurrection come. Thousands of saints will be killed for refuse worshipping the beast neither receivd the mark of the beast during future great tribulation. The resurrection shall be occur right AFTER they face Antichrist first - Rev. 20:4-5.

Obivously, Bible teaching us, Church shall have tribulations first before Christ comes - John 16:33; Acts 14:22; 1 Thess. 3:3-4. It is posttrib coming because of Matt. 24:29 says so.

Why cannot you accept the clear teaching from the Bible? Accept and believe what the Bible saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Carl,

Our gathering together at Christ's coming cannot come TILL we shall see apostasy and the revealed of Antichrist first - 2 Thess 2:1-3. So, therefore, it cannot be 'midweek rapture' or midtrib rapture either.

Carl, I ask you a simple question for you. Please show me where a verse in the Bible saying the rapture will be occur 3 1/2 years earlier BEFORE Christ's coming?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

GODzThunder,

I agree. We ought always be ready all the time, not know when Christ comes.

Many times, I hear pretribs always saying the same thing, that is called, 'imminent coming'.

Early Church believed Christ might come anytime in their lifetime. But, it does not make them 'pretrib', because they were not teaching on split comings or two phases of Christ's coming till 19th Century.

The fact, that the early Christians knew that they have to face tribulations and persecutions first(John 16:33; Acts 14:22; Romans 5:3-4; and 1 Thess. 3:3-4), also, they believed they have to face antichrist first before Christ comes.

During Reformation Period, Protestants believed Pope is the Antichrist, include Msrtin Luther thought Pope is the antichrist. I respect them well, because they were suffering under Catholic for a long time. I have nothing against them. 1 John 2:18; 4:3 describe about the antichrists, it is not speak of the world dicator, it speaks of the individuals of any person who deny that Christ came to earth in flesh, that He is God(the deity of Christ). Also, many people who professing Christians, but they are hypcroisy, have two faces, they are not saved. That what the passage of 1 John 2:18-23 talking about.

Now back to the point, Early Christians were expecting that face persecutions, tribulations and face Antichrist first before Christ. They believed Christ will come again follow on the last day of the world - one coming, no other comings.

I agree with you, we must always be prepared, watch, and be ready all times for Christ's coming.

Rev. 3:2-3 telling us, we ought always be ready to death all the time, or if we not watch or ready, Christ shall come to thief on us.

We do not know when we will die, maybe today, maybe tonight, maybe tomrrow, maybe next week, maybe next month, maybe next year. None of us know when we will die on the very day. Only God knows.

Good example of Sept 11, what happened to the workers at the World Trade Center, they were shocked and not expecting being killed so immediately right after the plane hit them.

I could be killed by car accident tonight.

Why should we always be ready all the times, because we shall not escape from the judgement day. Heb. 9:27 tells us, NO one shall escape from the judgement day ONCE after they died.

Judgment day is not funny, many will be trembling for it. Most are not prepared for the judgement day, many will be shocked, and will be ended up in hell.

I have no problem with the doctrine of imminence. I expecting Christ might come anytime in my lifetime. When, don't know. Always be ready all the times, - witness gospel, live right for God, serving the Lord all the times, because Christ shall judge our works, what our works result would be at the judgement day.

I am Amill. Amills believe Christ might come anytime same as what pretribs believe. All amills are not pretrib, but postibs.

I respect pretribs believe in the doctrine of imminence, because I know many of them are godly people, they serving the Lord, they always be ready for Christ's coming all the time. But, I notice many pretribs are not ready for the judgement day, many of them are not living for God. Same with amills, many amills are not ready for the judgement day.

Often pretrib citied Matt 24:36, 42 is the evidence of the doctrine on imminence, they saying it is pretrib rapture. The question is, do verse 36 and 42 saying it shall be BEFORE tribulation? None. Christ does not saying it.

The context of verse 36 and 42 speak of Christ's coming at the end of the age in the context of Matthew chapter 24.

There is no hint find anywhere in Matthew chapter 24 telling us there shall be two comings. Many pretribs are aware of it, yet, they are doing their own guesswork by intepreting on verse 36 and 42 is 'pretrib'. No way that they can prove it is pretrib, because Christ does not saying it.

You know, amills, pretribs, posttribs, all of us are agree on verse 36 and 42, that we do not know when Christ shall come again, amills and pretribs both agree that we ought always be ready all the time for Christ's coming.

Both amills and pretribs are eager looking forward for Christ's coming. I am one of them. That why Rev. 22:20 is my favorite verse. I am exciting looking forward for Chriost's coming. Yes, I must always be ready all the time for Christ's coming.

But, again, Matt 24:36, 42 do not saying it is 'pretrib'. I understand verse 36 and 42 very clear, they are talking about our prepared for His coming, but we do not know when His coming will be. Always be watch and be ready all the times.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Deafpostrib,

If you KNOW that Christ appeared secretly, there is no problem with what I said. CHRIST'S APPEARANCES are secret and open. I gave you the verses.

I "had no word" about TYPE. You did. The Bible says PATTERN. I gave you the verse. You didn't DO anything with it.

I'm certainly not worried about WHAT the "early church" SAID or DIDN'T SAY. I "stick" with the Bible. The Bible STATES that there was a MASSIVE APOSTASY in Asia "during Paul's LIFETIME". (2 Tim.1)

Not "my" interpretation, son. The Bible TEACHES that Christ's APPEARING to Paul was secret. It teaches that was the ONLY KIND OF APPEARANCE he ever witnessed. He SPOKE "only" of that APPEARING "when" he spoke about his APPEARING that WE will see. That included Paul. I gave you the verses.

The Pope doesn't agree with the Bible's statements either. So what?

You LEAPED to Daniel's week, when we're speaking about CHRIST'S SECRET APPEARANCE. Stay on subject.

I'm not speaking of the ADVENT of Christ. I'm speaking of the gathering of the body of Christ.

Quote:

Christ has a reason to appeared to face with Saul of Acts chapter 9, to rebuked him for persecution His Church. That was part of the revelation of Christ. Also, Christ has a purpose to use Paul, for to spread the GOSPEL to the Gentiles for salvation.

Unquote.

You certainly are correct about a reason. HIS LIFE IS AN EPISTLE WHICH TEACHES DOCTRINAL TRUTH FOR THE BODY OF CHRIST. He is our pattern. (Those which should HEREAFTER believe.)

No split appearances in the NT? You missed THE FIRST ONE when he appeared to Paul. That was SPLIT from WHEN he left the earth. You missed the rest when he APPEARED numerous other times to him. (2 Cor.12, Acts 26) You missed his appearance BEFORE the day of the Lord. (1 Thess.4-5) You missed one after the TRIBULATION, "before the end" of Daniel's week, which is DURING the day of the Lord. (Matt.24, Rev.6, 14, Luke 21) HE THEN APPEARS at Armageddon, and comes to earth at the start of the millennium. (Rev.19) There are PLENTY of split comings (appearances).

There are NO PASSAGES which teach that Jesus Christ COMES IN THE FUTURE "only" one time. You certainly didn't LIST THEM. There's PLENTY that teach he does come. The differences are noted in timing.

Yeah, secret appearance "resurfaced" JUST AS other doctrines did. (Premillennialism, salvation by grace, sola scripture, water baptism by immersion)

Son, you're givin doubletalk. Who doesn't know that Christ's coming is the rapture.

Quote:

I am sure that lot of pretribs are aware of the Bible. They know rapture always include second coming, no way they could afford to deny rapture is invlove second coming. Yet, they doing their own guesswork on the timing of rapture.

I do not accept any guesswork, it is a dangerous to guess the scriptures. We have to accept the facts and let what the scriptures say, not by our own opinion. Accept and believe what it saying.

Bible always teaching us rapture includes Christ's coming same time.

Unquote.

Talking about dangerous usage of scritpure.

You just quoted 1 Thess.4, which speaks of the DEAD IN CHRIST AND LIVING being gathered, then crossed it with Rev.20 which speaks ONLY of dead saints KILLED by the beast, who receive a resurrection AFTER Christ has returned. Check Rev.19. It comes BEFORE Rev.20. That's NOT a match.

You privately INTERPRETED the saints to be MEMBERS of the body (Christians), then used "false prooftexts" identifying the word, tribulation, AS the great tribulation of Matt.24. It's not. The TEXT of 1 Thess.3 PROVES that fact.

There's NOT a pretribulationist ALIVE who doesn't know that Christ is coming back AFTER the tribulation. The GATHERING of the body of Christ though is ANOTHER MATTER. It is BEFORE the day of the Lord, which INCLUDES the time of the woman in travail (1 Thess.5, Jer.30), which is the GREAT TRIBULATION, according to the Lord Jesus.

Quote:

Why cannot you accept the clear teaching from the Bible? Accept and believe what the Bible saying.

Unquote.

I do, son. See my earlier comments.

You evaded the doctrinal teaching of the scripture.

The ONLY appearance seen by Paul was the ONE he spoke concerning FOR THE BODY as our pattern. He was LOOKING for him as he saw him PREVIOUSLY. The 12 NEVER saw him like Paul did.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

Good Afternoon Carl!

You say,

I find 2 Tim. 1:15 says, "This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia(now Turkey) be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes."

Yes there was apostasy in Turkey during Paul's time. But, there are so many apostasies throughout many centuries during Church history since Pentacost Day to now. Bible tells us, apostasy is getting increasing worst throughout the Church history as it toward climax - Matt. 24:12; 2 Thess. 2:3; 1 Tim. 4:1-2; 2 Tim. 3:1-7; & 2 Tim. 4:3-4. Bible predicts the apostasy would become worst throughout centuries of the Church history in the last days toward to the end of the age.

In your own views. Bible does not teaching according to your belief.

When Jesus came to the synagogue. He opened the book of Isaiah, and preaching to the people. He said, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach 'the acceptable year of the Lord'." - Luke 4:18-19. Christ quoted it from Isaiah 61:1-2. But, Christ stopped in the middle of Isa. 61:2, as He closed it. He left "and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn." out of his preaching, as He closed it.

Why does he left it out? I believe Christ emphasis 'the acceptable year of the Lord' that we are in this present age, that the gospel is spread to the world. It is happening since after Christ's first advent at Calvary from Pentacost Day to today, and will continue preaching the gospel of salvation through great tribulation. This is the first advent of Christ.

"The day of vengeance of our God" is a future event, its speak of Christ's second advent to judge the world.

See? there is only two advents teaching in the Bible. There is no another splits comings afterward of "the acceptable year of the Lord".

40 days later after Christ's resurrection. When after Christ gave His great commission to His disciples, He ascend up into the heaven. Disciples were stare up in the clouds. Suddenly, two angels appeared in midst of them. And told them, Why stare up there? They said to them, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this SAME Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so COME in LIKE MANNER as ye have seen him go into heaven." - Acts 1:11.

Bible does not teaching us, Christ shall come like as 'Yo-Yo's'. Bible tells us, Christ shall come again in visible at once. At the first advent, Christ left Mt. Olivet, then at the second advent, He shall descend on Mt. Olivet - Zech. 14:4.

The resurrection of Christians shall not be occured till Christ must come first.

Early Christians said, the resurrection has already past - 2 Tim. 2:18. They were error saying of it.

Right now, we notice the cementary, see the graves all are still cover the bodies. Every person over the world are dying daily. We know that the resurrection is not yet occured now. Because Christ is not yet appear.

1 Thess. 4:15-17 telling us, the resurrection shall not be occur yet till Christ first must come, then the resurrection will be occured, THEN rapture second.

Thousands or millions of the saints will be continued killed by the beast in the great tribulation, obivously, Christ is not yet appear, and the resurrection is not yet occured.

You say,

Whilst in my early Christian life, I used to believed the Book of Revelation were written into chronological order. Like as 7 seals of the first 3 1/2 years of seven year Tribulation Period, 7 trumpets in the middle of seven year of Tribulation Period, 7 vials in the last of 3 1/2 years of seven year of Tribulation Period. Now, I realized the Book of Revelation was written into cycles, parallels, or retelling the events. All of seals, trumpets, and vials are merge together toward Christ's coming at the same.

Rev. 6:12-15 at the sixth seal will be broken at the end of tribulation period comparing of Matt. 24:29-30 about the cosmic disturbance. The seventh trumpet (last trump) will be blown in Rev. 11:15-18 show that the two witnesses(symbolic as we are Christ's witnesses) shall be risen at the seventh trumpet, and then Christ shall judge the world, and give rewards to the saints(Rev. 11:18. At the sixth vial, Euphrate River shall be dried up, allow army of the East to march across it preparing for the battle of Armageddon, Christ shall come for 'thief in the night', blessed that person who is watch and ready shall be caught up before Christ will destroyed armies at Armageddon - Rev. 16:12-16. Then, the seventh vail says, "It is done".

Yes, Revelation 19:11-21 mentioned Christ's coming. That's correct.

There are details in the Book of Revelation mentioned Christ's coming like as Rev. 1:7; Rev. 6:12-15; Rev. 10:7; Rev. 11:15-18; Rev. 14:14-20; Rev. 16:15; Rev. 19:11-21; and Rev. 20:9.

These are retelling the events of Christ's coming.

Same as sixth trumpet & sixth vial tell us, Euphrate River shall be dried up. Does it mean it shall be occured twice? No. It show us, these are retelling the events. Remember- seals, trumpets, and vials are all merge together toward the end at Christ's coming.

Also, the word, 'resurrection' does not appear in the Book of Revelation TILL Rev. 20:5. Obivously, we shall face tribulations and persecutions first before resurrection occured.

Pretrib inteprets Revelation into chronological order. That why, pretrib sayings Christ arrived in Rev 19 BEFORE millennial kingdom begins - Rev. 20.

Revelation chapter 20 is a heavily symbolic meanings, and figurative meanings.

Revelation chapter 20 is a deep discuss on the issue of millennium doctrine. I used myself as premill before for a long time. I became amill only 4 years ago. I will discuss on this in other topic.

You say,

Pretrib deny 'saints' of Rev. 13:7, 10; 14:12 are the members of Christ's Body as Church. Pretrib saying, they are separated from the Church, because they will miss rapture, will have another chance to become saved during great tribulation.

But their teaching is unbiblical.

Also, I do NOT do privately intepreting the scriptures. I understand the scriptures, because I have been reading and studying them - 2 Tim. 2:15. Also, 2 Peter 1:20 says, "Knowing this first, that NO prophecy of the scripture is of any PRIVATE interpretation."

Bible does not give us of any strange interpretation or any kinds of teachings. Bible reveals us that we can understand what all of these are talking about. That what 2 Tim. 2:15 is for.

Aren't we the saints - 1 Cor. 14:33 - "...but of peace , as in ALL churches of the saints." ?

I am sure that many pretribs are aware that 'saints' of Rev. 13:7 mean Christians, no doubt. But, yet, they say, they are not belong to Christ's body. Aren't the saints (Rev. 13:7) the Bride of Christ's? - Rev. 21:9?

There is NO difference between 'tribulation' & 'great tribulation' of Matt 24:21. Both are same defintion. Church already experinced tribulations throughout all centuries to today since pentacost day. There are many different varities and levels kinds of tribulations they faced, some are light, some are heavy, some are small, some are great, some are horrible. There are many different levels of tribulations, Chu4ch faced, yet these are same defintion, because Christ already suffered on the cross - 1 Peter 2:21, so, therefore, we ought to follow Christ's example - John 16:33; & 1 Peter 2:21.

I believe Matt 24:21 speaks of future event, that there shall be great tribulation, it will be much more worst than all tribulations in the Church history. Many Christians will be killed by the beast during great tribulation.

Also, pretrib saying, there is no word 'church' appear from Rev. 4 to 19, prove Church is gone by rapture in Revelation chapter 4. But, neither John saying 'church' is appear UP in the heaven between chapter 4 to 19 either.

Prerib's logically is fallacy.

No way that 'saints' of Rev. 13:7 is separated from Christ's Bride of Rev. 21:9. Saints of Rev. 13:7 always belong to Christ's. Saints same mean as Christians.

You say,

Yes, many pretribulationists are aware ot Maatt. 24:29-31 telling us, that Christ is coming back after tribulation. No way for pretrib to find a verse to prove that Christ is coming back BEFORE tribulation.

You not yet show me prove a verse saying Rapture will be occur 3 1/2 years earlier BEFORE Christ's coming. I am still waiting for you to prove a clear verse to me.

'The GATHERING of the body of Christ through is ANOTHER MATTER'.

Another matter?

There is no difference between Matt. 24:31 & 1 Thess. 4:16-17, both are same passage talking about Rapture.

Word, 'rapture' is not find anywhere in the Bible. Rapture is same as gathering together & 'caught up'.

You saying 'do not be confuse between 'day of Christ' & 'day of the Lord'.

Actually, both are same defintion & event.

Day of Christ speaks of Christ's coming. Day of the Lord speaks of Lord's coming for to judge the world.

Day of the Lord shall NOT come till AFTER cosmic disturbance occred first - Joel 2:31; 3:14-15. Day of the Lord cannot be occur yet TILL after sun, moon, and stars darkened. Same with Matt. 24:29-30.

Day of the Lord is not seven year of tribulation period. It is Christ's coming to judge the world.

None in the Bible saying, the day of the Lord stretches into 7 years or 1007 years. Zeph. 1:14-15 tells us, the day of the Lord is A day for to judge the world shall be at Lord's coming.

Often, pretrib teaching on 1 Thess 4 & 5, they saying, both are different events. They saying 1 Thess. 4 speaks of rapture, 1 Thess 5 speaks of tribulation.

Understand, during Paul's time in year around 57 A.D., there was NO chapter & verse. Paul wrote them as epistle. The context of 1 Thess. 4:13-5:9 focus on the same subject talking about Lord's coming. I understand 1 Thess. 5:2-3 tell us, when Christ shall come like as "thief in the night" speak of shocked to the world, that the angels will grab them away for the judgement day - Matt. 13:28-30; 39-42; Matt. 24:40-41; Matt. 25:31-33; & 2 Thess. 1:7-10.

I am sure that, many pretrib teaching on 1 Thess. 5:3 - 'peace and safety' speaks of peace treaty with Israel. But, not what Paul was actually talking about. 1 Thess. 5:3 speaks of the current world conditional, what the people are doing. "Peace and safety" describes of people think, we are peace and safety, because they have everything like, having life insurance, 401K, wealthy, money, strong security, etc. Most Christians in America feel safety because of high security. They think everything seem fine no problem. Same with Noah's day of Matt. 24:38, what they were doing before the flood came. When the flood came and it took all away, same with "thief in the night" shall be at Christ's coming - Matt. 24:39.

I know pretrib's teaching of Jer. 30:7 - "Jacob's trouble" mean seven years of Tribulation period FOR Israel is future event.

But, they misintepreting Jer. 30:7, what Jermeiah, the prophet was talking about. The only way, that we could understand Jer. 30:7, what it is talking about. We have to read start with the CONTEXT at Jeremiah chapter 29 thru chapter 30. Jeremiah chapter 29 and 30 talking about the warning to Israel, that Israel shall suffer punishment, by send Babylon to invade Israel, because of their rebellion against God. Jer. 30:7 already fulfilled about 2,500 years ago. Jer. 29:4 - Jeremiah warned to Israel, that God said, He will send Israel away to Babylon. Later, it fulfilled that Babylon did invaded Jerusalem, and took Hebrews away into captivity for 70 years.

Jer. 30:7 already fulfilled that Israel was in great trouble caused by Babylon invaded them in year around 560 B.C.(I am not sure what exactly year was). Then, "but he shall be SAVED out of it." fulfilled 70 years later after their captivity, Israel returned to Jerualem during Ezra's time. Notice Jer. 30:8-10 speak of set Israle freed from their capitvity, and return back to their home again.

Jeremiah chapter 29 & 30 already fulfilled about 2,500 years ago. Jer. 30:7 does not discuss about the future supposed seven years of Tribulation. Not what Jeremiah, the prophet was actually talking about. We have to be carefully, what we reading the context of Jeremiah chapter 29 & 30.

By the way, I am NOT a preterist. I understand what the scriptures are talking about. That is how the way I read and study according to 2 Tim. 2:15.

I do believe Christ's coming is a FUTURE event.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

That was written for you, Brother
DeafPosttrib. (well, specifically - in gerneral is was written for us all, including myself)
You seem to love trying to
explain other's positions, but i still
don't understand your position. If you don't
know your position, who will?

Your ego is showing. You seem to define
your own interpertation as public,
anybody else's interpertation as private.
That is called a double standard.

 

Ed,

My real position of my belief: Postrib, amill, and idealist. I am not either partial or full preterist.

Full preterists believe everything in the Bible on prophecies are fulfilled in year 70 A.D.

Partial preterists believe many things of Matthew chapter 24 already fulfilled in 70 A.D., but Christ's coming is yet to come is future.

So far, I am aware of many postmills are preterists. Also, I do know many amills are partial preterists, all of amills do believe Christ's coming is future event.

Often, pretrib/futurists accuse on amills, that ey are preterists. But they misunderstanding what amills really believe. Amills do believe Christ's coming is future event. Amills understand the scriptures which one is talking about the past or future on the prophecies which one is fulfilled depend on what the grammar is talking about.

For example - Daniel 9:24-27, pretribs saying, verse 27 is a future event - seven year of tribulation period. Amills understand Dan. 9:24-27 already fulfilled at Calvary 2,000 years ago. There is no gap time between verse 26 and 27. Christ was cut off AFTER the 69th week, that means He already make new covenant with many on the 70th week speak of calvary - mark 14:24.

I am sure, that many groups like premills, postmills, amills, pretribs, midtrib, posttribs, preterists, all of them seem misunderstanding each other about what they really believe.

God knows what in our minds, what we really believe. They cannot read in our minds what we really believe.

I believe everything what the Bible teaching. We cannot be expect that every Chhristians on earth to have the same view, mind, belief on the Bible about the doctrine what we believe.

But, the basic thing, that both pretrib and posttrib agree: Christ came to earth to saved us. Christ died on the cross for our sins. Christ risen from the dead - literally(some don't), Christ now sit on the right hand of God the Father in heaven. Christ is coming again. That is the fundamental doctrine, that we believe the basic things what the Bible teaching.

There is much divided among groups about the timing of Rapture, and other stuffs. But, the most important basic thing, that both believe is on Lord Jesus Christ.

You and I both agree Jesus Christ died on the cross, and He is coming again, also, He is our Saviour.

Debate on the timing of Rapture does not effect our salvation. It has do nothing do with salvation, we know that.

debate on rapture timing is endless. Till Christ comes, then the debate on it will be stop and we will forget it forever and ever.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Thank you. Having posted by you
for three years now, i knew you were that.
I think your solution is one of those possible
without leaving too many holes. But so is
mine. You obviously don't know higher
mathematics so you are not familiar with
multi-solutional equations, those "answers".solutions.

May God bless your endeavors right smartly! Amen.

 

Ed,

I do know the basic math stuffs. You use math on verses for rapture or coming, show that you have your own logicals too much. Being to know the math is sufficence or satisfy for me. I do not need deep math like as at college.

By the way, I know you for over 3 years at raptureready, I notice you always intepreting verses into your own logicals too much.

I rather not interpreting verses in my own logicals, allow scripture interpeting scriptures. Believe and accept what the scriptures saith. I can't argue with these. For example- Matt. 24:29-31; and 2 Thess. 2:1-3 caused me left pretrib camp, because I cannot wrestle or struggle with them. I understood them, and simple accept believe them, also, follow them, do not argue with God's Word. Simple.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Deabpostrib,

Your theology courses are tiring. Keep your posts short and concise, and ON SUBJECT. You wandering and meandering trying to teach your whole eschatological system in one sitting.

You finished last time with a question asking me, "Why don't I accept the Bible, etc." Pretty antagonistic and condescending.

I have written a book IF you care to understand my presentation of the Midweek Gathering. (www.midweekpublishing.com) It's DOCUMENTED with verses, charts, and graphs.

Yes, I quoted you the Bible so that you COULD understand APOSTASY was there in Paul's time, with many DEPARTING from the faith. (HIS TEACHINGS) This concerns your subject concerning WHY doesn't the church fathers teach such and such. (They taught MANY false doctrines, which aren't biblical.) They didn't teach SOME which were. There is historical, perennial, and PROPHETICAL apostasy, which CULMINATES in the GATHERING of the body of Christ. (2 Thess.2)

Your "view" denies that Paul gave SUBSEQUENT REVELATION. The Bible "certainly" doesn't document that teaching.

Yes, the day of vengeance is a future event, and it concerns the TIME of Jacob's trouble and the time of the Gentiles. (Jer.30, Ez.30). That's the time of the woman in travail, SPOKEN BY PAUL, which we ESCAPE. (1 Thess.5)

No, the gospel of the grace of God WILL NOT be preached during the tribulation. It will be the gospel of the kingdom. (Matt.24) All those WHO DID NOT BELIEVE Paul's gospel will RECEIVE tribulation, AND A LIE, because they received NOT the love of the truth, UNLIKE US, the body of Christ. (2 Thess.1-2)

You quoted OT references and didn't give SUBSEQUENT REVELATION. Christ Jesus gave subsequent revelation on the Mt. of Olives. It's a GATHERING before Armageddon. HE RETURNS to heaven with them for a WEDDING is going on! (John 10, 14, Matt.25, Luke 12)

You FORGOT the gathering. The Lord GATHERS them, AFTER the tribulation, BEFORE Armageddon; NOT SIMULTANEOUS with his appearance in Rev.19 to Armageddon.

You fail to give Paul's SUBSEQUENT REVELATION. According to him, the Lord GATHERS the body of Christ BEFORE the day of the Lord, which INCLUDES the tribulation. (Jer.30, Zeph.1) Christ Jesus COMES AND SMITES THE EARTH WITH A CURSE, at the coming of ELijah, which is 1230 days BEFORE the end of the tribulation. (Rev.11, Mal.4)

Again, you quote Acts 1, NOT GIVING subsequent revelation given to Paul.

He will come as stated by Matt.24-Acts 1. He will also come as stated in 1 Thess.5. He will come as stated in Rev.19. They are ALL different in TIMING.

Now you just PRIVATELY INTERPRETED "many" verses, while ADDING your own word.

Quote:
Bible tells us, Christ shall come again in visible at once.

Unquote.

NO IT DOESN'T BY ANY PROOFTEXT. You didn't list it!

I know the resurrection occurs WHEN Christ comes back. You don't BELIEVE that he comes BEFORE the day of the Lord(the day of vengeance), WHILE I do. Your problem AFTER STATING the dead arise at Christ's coming is that you run to a verse in Rev.20, which is not IDENTIFIED as the dead IN CHRIST, with no living mentioned, which occurs AFTER Armageddon!

Sorry, that won't work.

Now, we're going into the chronology of the book of Revelation?

I never believed the standard teaching. The seals take you through the appearance of the 7th king of Rev.17, when he first shows up (Rev.6) unto the appearance of Christ in Rev.19. The trumpets begin AT the fourth seal, AFTER the midst of the week, when Satan and his angels show up. The vials are poured out DURING the sounding of the 7th trumpet, which lasts for DAYS. (Rev.10,11,15-16)

They don't POINT to "one coming" AFTER all of them. The coming of Christ occurs post-tribulationally in Rev.6 before Rev.19. This is after the trib, WHEN the days are shortened. His appearance occurs midweek with the RAPTURE of the manchild as TOLD John. (Rev.12, John 16) It occurs AFTER Daniel's week, when he comes at Armageddon. (Rev.19)

John's book of Revelation is the FOUR-FOLD coming of Christ to this earth as God. (His other appearance in seen in Rev.5 as the SLAIN LAMB!)

Quote:

The seventh trumpet (last trump) will be blown in Rev. 11:15-18 show that the two witnesses(symbolic as we are Christ's witnesses) shall be risen at the seventh trumpet, and then Christ shall judge the world, and give rewards to the saints(Rev. 11:18. At the sixth vial, Euphrate River shall be dried up, allow army of the East to march across it preparing for the battle of Armageddon, Christ shall come for 'thief in the night', blessed that person who is watch and ready shall be caught up before Christ will destroyed armies at Armageddon - Rev. 16:12-16. Then, the seventh vail says, "It is done".

Unquote.

You decided to go "spiritual" in Revelation. The witnesses are not symbolical of us. They are taken up WITHOUT HEADS, witnessed by others BEFORE the 7th trumpet is blown. You should LOOK at your prooftext.

Rev.11 gives a "further" scope INTO THE FUTURE, which reaches to Rev.20 at the great white throne judgment.

John writes LIKE Daniel. He gives the broad, long view, then comes back with insertion of facts at DIFFERENT points within the view.

Quote:

There are details in the Book of Revelation mentioned Christ's coming like as Rev. 1:7; Rev. 6:12-15; Rev. 10:7; Rev. 11:15-18; Rev. 14:14-20; Rev. 16:15; Rev. 19:11-21; and Rev. 20:9.

These are retelling the events of Christ's coming.

Unquote.

No, I'm afraid not. Rev.14 IS NOT Rev.19. He's got ONE CROWN on his head, while he's got MANY CROWNS in the other place. Go back and look at what the BIBLE STATES.

Amillenialism is heresy plain and simple. Symbolical, figurative statements will not help you DENY the thousand year reign of Christ AS the Son of David. (Psalm 90, 2 Peter 3, Rev.20) The Biblical system of sevens corobborate the 1000 year period as a REST, according to Paul, Moses, and John. (Heb.4) Those boys WERE the master teachers of REVELATION.

Well, I've got to run. Get back to this later.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl
Psalm 149:6

 

Oops, my last post isn't anywhere near what i
thought it was. Let me try again.

DeafPosttrib: "My real position of my belief: Postrib,
amill, and idealist. I am not either partial or full preterist."

Thank you for relating that. Having posted by you
for three years now, i knew you were of
the postrib, amill, idealist eschatology.

I think your solution is one of those possible
without leaving too many holes. But my
view: pretrib, premill, and futurist, is without
holes.

You obviously don't know higher
mathematics so you are not familiar with
multi-solutional equations, those equations that
have multiple correct "answers". So i cannot use
those examples.

May God bless Brother DeafPosttrib, his family,
and his ministry this very day. Amen!