The Rapture

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Michael D. Edwards, Jan 19, 2002.

  1. Michael D. Edwards

    Michael D. Edwards
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    Hello all:

    Fairly new here, and I'm studying the topic of the rapture currently. Of course, I was brought up to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, and I wouldn't change my opinion without a tremendous amount of study on the topic. So, I've found tons of sites dealing with the rapture and their scriptural defenses and am still trying to properly interpret these scriptures, which I take seriously. Any thoughts I guess we could hash them out here!

    Michael
     
  2. donnA

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    Oh, my..
    I don't believe it. Is that your real name?

    My brother is named Michael R. Edwards.
     
  3. Scott_Bushey

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    Michael,
    To start with, I would encourage you to explore how old this line of *thought is?

    Who started it?

    In HIS grip,
    Scott Bushey
    :confused:

    [ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Godluv777 ]
     
  4. SueLyn

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    Edwards is a good last name, it happens to be my maiden name also. My dad always said everyone was once an Edwards until they messed up. :D
    I was raised pre-trib also, and see no reason to believe otherwise. Does it make a lot of difference? When it's time to go, I'll be gone, pre, mid or post.
    Sue
     
  5. Ray Berrian

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    Michael,

    Some people say about those who believe in the rapture, that it is a 'secret rapture.' This could not be true because when He comes at the rapture, the Bible says in I Thess. 4:16 that ' . . .the Lord Himself shall descend with a SHOUT, with the VOICE of the archangel, and with the TRUMPET of God. Although we Christians might not hear the SHOUT, TRUMPET OR THE VOICE, nevertheless, the lost who remain on the earth will hear the SHOUT, the VOICE, and the TRUMPET sound.

    Then comes the Great Tribulation era in the world.

    "Ray"
     
  6. John Wells

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    This subject comes up so often, that I have compiled a composite of the excellent points that have been brought up in previous threads:

    Key Verses:

    For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Th 4:16-17 NIV)

    After the dead come forth, their spirits, already with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23), now being joined to resurrected new bodies (see notes on 1 Cor. 15:35-50), the living Christians will be raptured, lit. snatched away (cf. John 10:28; Acts 8:39). This passage, along with John 14:1-3 and 1 Cor. 15:51,52, form the biblical basis for "the Rapture" of the church. The time of the Rapture cannot be conclusively determined from this passage alone. However, when other texts such as Rev. 3:10 and John 14:3 are consulted and compared to the texts about Christ's coming in judgment (Matt. 13:34-50; 24:29-44; Rev. 19:11-21) at the end of a 7 year tribulation, it has to be noted that there is a clear difference between the character of the "Rapture" in that there is no mention of any judgment, while the other texts feature judgment. So then, it is best to understand that the Rapture occurs at a time different from the coming of Christ in judgment. Thus, the Rapture has been described as pretribulational (before the wrath of God unfolded in the judgments of Rev. 6-19). This event includes complete transformation (cf. 1 Cor. 15:51,52; Phil 3:20,21) and union with the Lord Jesus Christ that never ends.

    Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. (Rev 3:10 NIV)

    Revelation 5:9-10 (ESV) And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." But angels soon join the creatures and the elders in praising the Lamb in v.11-12.

    The Greek text used by the KJV indicates that the new song is sung by those who themselves have been redeemed: "Thou . . . has redeemed us to God . . . and hast made us unto our God kings and priests, and we shall reign on the earth."

    The NIV, however, reads, "You purchased men for God. . . . You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." If the KJV is correct, the 24 elders must represent the church or saints in general. If their song is impersonal as in the NIV and they simply are singing that Christ is the Redeemeer of all men, it opens the possibility that the 24 elders could be angels, though it does not expressly affirm it.

    While scholars differ on this point, it would seem that since the elders are clothed in white, indicating purity; seated on thrones, suggesting responsibility and status; crowned with victors' wreaths seem to indicate that the elders had been judged and rewarded; and they themselves bear witness that they have been redeemed by the blood of Christ and, therefore, constitute a kingdom of priests. Such a description can only represent redeemed humanity, i.e. the OT and NT saints who are raptured and missing out on The Great Tribulation!

    "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God ; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. (John 14:1-3 NIV)

    In 2 Thess. 2 we are told that 'one' is holding back the 'secret power of lawlessness' which is part and parcel of the reign of the antichrist. The only 'one' who can hold back lawlessness is God. BUT God the Father is in heaven. God the Son is seated at His right hand and will remain there until it is time for Him to return. So that means the job of restraint is delegated to the Holy Spirit, who resides in the hearts of born again believers (Romans 8:8).
    Now go to Hebrews 13:5, which quotes Deuteronomy 31:6, where God says, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."
    If the Holy Spirit, the one restraining evil, is taken out of the way, what happens to Christians? Are they left without Him? That would be God breaking His promise to all of us. Therefore, if we are not to be left as orphans (John 14:18), we go when the Holy Spirit goes. For we ARE the Temple of the Lord now, here on earth. It is we who will be removed before the antichrist is revealed. It is through us that the Holy Spirit is holding back evil.
    Our rapture is not just promised, but absolutely necessary for the progression of events marked by the Tribulation. -- Helen Setterfield

    But let me tell you a wonderful secret God has revealed to us. Not all of us will die, but we will all be transformed. It will happen in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, the Christians who have died will be raised with transformed bodies. And then we who are living will be transformed so that we will never die. For our perishable earthly bodies must be transformed into heavenly bodies that will never die.
    When this happens-when our perishable earthly bodies have been transformed into heavenly bodies that will never die-then at last the Scriptures will come true:
    "Death is swallowed up in victory.
    O death, where is your victory?
    O death, where is your sting?" 1 Cor 15:51-55

    The church is not mentioned in Revelation chapters 4-18 which describes the tribulation period in detail.

    And now, brothers and sisters, let us tell you about the coming again of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered together to meet him. 2 Please don't be so easily shaken and troubled by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Even if they claim to have had a vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us, don't believe them. 3 Don't be fooled by what they say.
    For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed-the one who brings destruction. 4 He will exalt himself and defy every god there is and tear down every object of adoration and worship. He will position himself in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God. 5 Don't you remember that I told you this when I was with you? 6 And you know what is holding him back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes. (2 Thes 2:1-6)

    1. John 14:1-3 makes little sense in a post trib rapture. In what sense do believers go to the Father's house, if they return immediately to rule with Christ on earth? Christ himself seems to teach by implication or at least presuppose a pre-trib rapture here. Wellsj referred to this earlier but no one that I have seen attempted to answer it.
    2. If a) the rapture is at the end of the trib, and if b) the rapture includes all the believers, and if c) all the unbelievers are destroyed at Armageddon, then who is left to populate the earth during the millennium? Points (b) and (c) are irrefutable. Point (a) is the point under discussion. Very simply put, if all three of these protases are true, then there is no one left to populate the earth during the millennium. In this case you are left with Christ ruling over nobody and Satan having no nations to deceive when he is released from the bottomless pit (Rev 20:7-9). The only way that there are people to populate the earth during the millennium is if there is a pre-trib rapture, then people saved during the tribulation who enter the millennial kingdom and populate the earth.

    [ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: John Wells ]
     
  7. Helen

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    n 2 Thess. 2 we are told that 'one' is holding back the 'secret power of lawlessness' which is part and parcel of
    the reign of the antichrist. The only 'one' who can hold back lawlessness is God. BUT God the Father is in heaven.
    God the Son is seated at His right hand and will remain there until it is time for Him to return. So that means the
    job of restraint is delegated to the Holy Spirit, who resides in the hearts of born again believers (Romans 8:8).
    Now go to Hebrews 13:5, which quotes Deuteronomy 31:6, where God says, "Never will I leave you; never will I
    forsake you."
    If the Holy Spirit, the one restraining evil, is taken out of the way, what happens to Christians? Are they left
    without Him? That would be God breaking His promise to all of us. Therefore, if we are not to be left as orphans
    (John 14:18), we go when the Holy Spirit goes. For we ARE the Temple of the Lord now, here on earth. It is we
    who will be removed before the antichrist is revealed. It is through us that the Holy Spirit is holding back evil.
    Our rapture is not just promised, but absolutely necessary for the progression of events marked by the Tribulation.



    Gee, John, where did you get that???

    :D
     
  8. Ray Berrian

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    Helen & John,

    I agree 100% with your view. It is alway encouraging to hear other people say the same thing about the Word of God; He never tells one Christian one thing and another Christian something different.

    Thanks for the encouragement.

    "Ray"
     
  9. ROBERTGUWAPO

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    This "shorty" is dedicated to all you pretribbers out there who need to see the light.

    An Exciting Day at Rapture Bible College
    (some names have been changed to protect the guilty)
    by Dave MacPherson


    Professor John Wallboard: Welcome to Advanced Rapture Techniques, course no. 666. If you study hard you'll get a Rapture Franchise someday. Talk about money! You'll be so successful you can even have a scandal or two and folks will still love you. Some of our star graduates are Tommy Eisegesis, Hal Lindseedy, Dwight Plentycost, Chas. Ryewheat, Chas. Stainley, Jimmy Swagger, Jack Van Empty, Edgar Whizheain't, and Jack Wiles. Does anybody already know any rapture gimmicks?
    Tim (a student): I do. Pastor Stainley recently showed how fast the "twinkling of an eye" is by blinking his eye and making everyone laugh. Then, with sleight of mouth, he said the rapture will happen that fast. No one even noticed (heh, heh) that this passage doesn't say how fast the catching up is. But I knew he only wanted to compare the rapture with the final advent. Actually, Matt. 24:31's "gather" (in a posttrib setting) could be just as fast. But if we admit this, we lost a good pretrib argument, right?
    Prof. Wallboard: Excellent, Tim. Now here's a technique on the "day of the Lord" I've used. Everyone ties together the rapture and the start of this "day." Since we're pretrib we naturally stretch forward this "day" and tie it to our rapture----what Darby and Scofield never dared to do. Since Acts 2:20 puts the (posttrib) sun/moon darkening before this "day," our prophecy charts would be more honest if they showed this darkening near the tribulation's start. But it would hurt us, so we just ignore Acts 2:20 and no one (hee, hee) ever seems to notice! Does anyone know how pretrib began?
    Tim: I do. Our books claim that around 1830 John Darby discovered the church/Israel "dichotomy" which led him to pretrib. But my research has uncovered some long-covered-up facts. Darby brought the "new" (his term) pretrib view to the U.S. during the 1860's and 1870's. He seemed to view Southerners as ignorant and never once visited what has been the Confederate States. However, he later inspired outsiders and inside "Judases" to pretribize the South, taking advantage of the Civil War's chaos and destruction of Southern libraries and churches. Today many Southerners are finding out that posttrib was the South's ONLY rapture view during the 1600's, 1700's, and early 1800's prior to the Great Southern Betrayal!
    Professor Wallboard, the most complete documentation on pretrib's bizarre, short-lived history is Dave MacPherson's The Rapture Plot (300 pgs., index, bibliog., appendices), available at armageddonbooks.com. If MacPherson's name is typed in on Internet search engines such as Yahoo and Google, quite often the first entry is: "Dave MacPherson's the Rapture plot: weighed and found wanting." Well, the world's worst scales must have been used! This entry is based on only five and a half pages (focusing on the same Plot book) in Frank Marotta's 28-page booklet on Morgan Edwards, a booklet in which words are sloppily added, subtracted, and changed in quotes, not to mention deliberate falsification of evidence, all of which proves there's something Marotta in more than just the state of Denmark! And everyone knows that if money is paid, an entry can be listed in the first slot on search engines----proof that pretrib tries to succeed by buying as well as by lying!
    (Tim walks to the podium, pushes the professor away, and keeps on talking)
    Something has begun to bother me. Our techniques are actually lies----
    Prof. Wallboard: But, Tim----
    Tim: ----and if our view is wrong, we're gambling with millions of lives!
    Prof. Wallboard: TIM!
    Tim: Don't stop me, Professor. I've checked Darby's writings. He didn't see any "dichotomy" until LONG AFTER the Irvingites began publicly teaching pretrib in 1830. In fact, Darby didn't clearly teach pretrib himself until 1839! You also know that Scofield was a jailed forger even AFTER his conversion in 1879 and that his wife divorced him in 1883 after he deserted her and his daughters! Pretrib is a colossal hoax! I'm leaving this class and this school! And I won't be surprised if God uses financial collapses and other disasters to wake up pretrib deceivers and deceivees!
    (Tim walks out and all of the other students follow him)


    :rolleyes:
     
  10. Ray Berrian

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    I wouldn't be quick to ridicule other men of God who teach the pretribulation view. Your Bible verse for this week is Psalm 105:15. 'Touch not mine anointed; and do My prophets no harm.' In February you might try to understand and obey I Timothy 5:17.

    When you get to the states I want to meet you. Anyone who is of a better spiritual caliber and has a better understanding of the Word than Drs. Stanley and Walvoord I must not only meet but kneel at your feet.

    Not!

    With regards,

    "Ray"
     
  11. Dr. Bob

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    Ray - Think we all, including me, need to consider that warning.

    We all disagree over some area - whether eschatology, ecclesiology, or the doctrines of creation or of God's grace.

    We need to disagree without being disagreeable.

    My goal is to earnest CONTEND for the faith, without being CONTENTIOUS. As most BB readers know, I have a long way to go to reach that goal. :rolleyes:
     
  12. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael D. Edwards:
    Hello all:

    Fairly new here, and I'm studying the topic of the rapture currently. Of course, I was brought up to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, and I wouldn't change my opinion without a tremendous amount of study on the topic. So, I've found tons of sites dealing with the rapture and their scriptural defenses and am still trying to properly interpret these scriptures, which I take seriously. Any thoughts I guess we could hash them out here!

    Michael
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Michael:

    See the excellent article,

    A Present or Future Millennium? by Kim Riddlebarger
     
  13. Michael D. Edwards

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    Wow gang!

    Sure was a lot to read there! I myself through Bible study have come to see the extremely difficult position of interpreting the Bible in a way that would lead to a pre-triblation rapture. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't call men who preach that heretics, as some, for I myself really believed it before as well. The timing of the rapture isn't an issue of salvation for sure, but when it happens I feel DOES matter. If end times events weren't going to affect us, God wouldn't have devoted over 1/3 of the Bible to prophecy, especially the Book of the Revelation itself. I have lots to continue to think about. However, posts such as all the above can do more harm then good. They're so long and present so many thoughts in one message, that it's difficult to ever parse and discuss each piece as a group. Hopefully that can be resolved a bit!

    Love in Christ
    Michael Edwards
     
  14. Michael D. Edwards

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SuekieLyn:
    Edwards is a good last name, it happens to be my maiden name also. My dad always said everyone was once an Edwards until they messed up. :D
    I was raised pre-trib also, and see no reason to believe otherwise. Does it make a lot of difference? When it's time to go, I'll be gone, pre, mid or post.
    Sue
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    My dad always said from the pulpit, "Like my great great great great great great grandfather Johnathan Edwards said..." Yes, it is a good name! From what I understand it comes from Wales, but I digress!

    Michael
     
  15. Michael D. Edwards

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    Thanks for the link. However, I feel that the author doesn't present an accurate history of reformed theology as it pertains to amillenialism. Further, study of the Bible wouldn't permit such a view, in my humble opinion.

    In Christ
    Michael

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:

    Michael:

    See the excellent article,

    A Present or Future Millennium? by Kim Riddlebarger
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  16. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael D. Edwards:
    Further, study of the Bible wouldn't permit such a view, in my humble opinion.

    In Christ
    Michael
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Actually, many who have studied the Scriptures in far greater depth presumably than you and I - from Luther and Calvin to Hoekema to Venema would disagree ;)

    If interested, see A DEFENSE OF (REFORMED) AMILLENNIALISM

    [ January 22, 2002: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]
     
  17. ROBERTGUWAPO

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    Dear Ray,

    Thanks for the two verses that are for my reflection and meditation. However...what Psalms 105:15 refers to is physical harm of prophets and anointed ones. And...1Tim5:17 does not exempt teachers who espouse new, novel, questionable teachings. This Pretrib teaching is supported by such weak verses that, upon close examination, really do not support such a teaching. You gave me two weak verses....

    I would be wary of such a teaching that was not taught by the early church fathers, the reformers, nor even recognized by church historians. This teaching originated in 1830 through the ramblings of Margaret MacDonald and is occultic in nature. Then, John Darby got hooked and the Baptist world was never the same. Proof? "The Irrationalism of Infidelity" by John Darby, pp.283-285, where Darby describes in great detail his visiting MacDonald where they discussed her endtime views, and even her so-called "scriptural support."

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
    I wouldn't be quick to ridicule other men of God who teach the pretribulation view. Your Bible verse for this week is Psalm 105:15. 'Touch not mine anointed; and do My prophets no harm.' In February you might try to understand and obey I Timothy 5:17.

    When you get to the states I want to meet you. Anyone who is of a better spiritual caliber and has a better understanding of the Word than Drs. Stanley and Walvoord I must not only meet but kneel at your feet.

    Not!

    With regards,

    "Ray"
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    [ January 22, 2002: Message edited by: ROBERTGUWAPO ]
     
  18. John Wells

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The term premillennialism means that Christ will return before the Millennium to establish His earthly reign of one thousand years. The church from the beginning was premillennial in belief. The Didache (c. A.D. 100), Clement of Rome (A.D. 96 or 97), the Shepherd of Hermas (A.D. 140–150), Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 50–115?), Papias (A.D. 80–163), Justin Martyr (b. c. A.D. 100), Irenaeus (d. A.D. 200), Tertullian (A.D. 150–225), and other sources indicate that the early church believed in the return of Jesus Christ to personally establish His earthly kingdom. - Enns, P. P. (1997, c1989). The Moody handbook of theology. Chicago, Ill.: Moody Press.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Hmmm . . . either Dr. D.L. Moody or Mr. Guwapo espouse bad information? :eek:
     
  19. ROBERTGUWAPO

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    Dear Mr. Wells,

    Quote me some material by the early church fathers and even by the reformers that show that Jesus Christ will rapture us (THE GREAT ESCAPE) out before the tribulation kicks in.
    Hmmm...I wonder....
    :rolleyes:

    [ January 22, 2002: Message edited by: ROBERTGUWAPO ]
     
  20. ROBERTGUWAPO

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    Mr. Wells the Moderator wrote:
    1. John 14:1-3 makes little sense in a post trib rapture. In what sense do believers go to the Father's house, if they return immediately to rule with Christ on earth? Christ himself seems to teach by implication or at least presuppose a pre-trib rapture here. Wellsj referred to this earlier but no one that I have seen attempted to answer it.
    -------


    Jesus says, "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."
    -------


    Robert says: Is there something in what Jesus said that speaks about a rapture? Is there? I don't see it...perhaps I'll see it if I look hard enough, long enough, and forcefully enough. What it plainly says is that Christ will return and that all Christians will be united with him in eternity.

    The problem with rapturists is that they are always looking for something that isn't there. So, of course, what they do is to force an unknown, strange interpretation and attach it to the verse.

    Baptist John Gill writes of Jesus's words, "Seeing I AM going to prepare, and will prepare a place for you, of the truth of which you may be fully assured; I will come again; either by death, or in Person a Second time, here on Earth; and receive you unto Myself; I'll take you up with Me to Heaven. I'll receive you into glory that where I AM there you may be also; and behold My glory and be forever with Me and never part more."

    One author said about the above verses, "Jesus never said anything about coming back, gathering his saints, then returning with them to a world filled with the wicked carnage of sinful mankind."

    Mr. Wells, thou shalt rightly divide the Word of God!!! :rolleyes:

    [ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: ROBERTGUWAPO ]
     

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