The rapture

Notice the neat parallel passages
from God's Holy Written Word:


Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The timeline according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The timeline according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The timeline according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

 

Actually, 2 Thess 2:1-3 is the
PROOF TEXT for the pretribulation rapture
of the church age saints!

The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Tribulation period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Zion north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture.

 

Because He said He would.
BTW, it is no skin off my nose if
"1,000 years" is symbolic of "a long time".

Hashem be praised!

 

Ed,

You really TWIST what Lord Jesus Christ saying.

Our gathering together CANNOT occur yet TILL Christ descend out of the heaven FIRST.

Also, the context of Matt. 24:29-31 discuss the describe about Lord's coming, what will be happen.

The gathering together of the elect/Christians would not be occur yet till Christ appears in the clouds with power anf glory IS the 'coming' - Matt 24:30, same with 'coming' of 1 Thess. 4:15.

You keep on breaking the Hermenuetic rule - interpreting in CONTEXTUALLY.

You calls, Matt 24:31 - 'pretrib' gathering. Christ disagree with you. Christ tells us, our gathering together CANNOT be occur yet TILL Christ comes FIRST - 1 Thess 4:15-17.

Where did you get this come from??

I think you seems do not understand what Matt 24:13 talking about. But, NO EXCUSE for you CAN understand what Matt. 24:13 talking about!

The problem is, the context of 1 Thess. 4:13-18 does not saying Christ shall come before tribulation. Neither, it mentioned the timing of our gathering together. The context of 1 Thess. 4:13-18 discuss about Christians, who were concerning about their love one already died, what will happen to them, Paul told them, do not be worry, or sorrow about their love one who already died, Paul told them, they will see their love one again when Christ comes again - 1 Thess 4:17-18, that would be a BIG REUNION DAY!

Again, there was no chapter and verse in Paul's time. Paul wrote these in the epistle(letter).

The context of 1 Thess. 1-10 talk about warning us, that we must be watch for Christ's coming, because his coming shall be like as thief in the night. IF we do not watch, He shall come to thief us!!! - Rev. 3:3 Paul urges us, that we must be in the ligt, not be in the dark. That means we must be blameless and walking godly daily always be ready for his coming, so, we shall not be ashamed at His coming.

The Bible does not saying the wrath is 7 year of tribulation period.

Wrath is not for Christians. Wrath is for the unbelievers also, anyone whosoever worship the beast, received the mark of the beast will face the wrath - Rev. 14:9-12. Wrath is to send people to lake of fire.

Tribulation is different as wrath. Tribulation is trials, troubles, sufferings, persecution, etc..

We are appointed for tribulation - 1 Thess. 3:3-4, because Christ suffered for us, so, therefore, we should follow and suffer for Christ - 1 Peter 2:21.

During year 1950's, many pretrib pastors adopted Dr. English Schyuler's definition of 'falling away' of 2 Thess 2:3 means the departure of the saints is rapture.

Many pastors include you ignore Greek word defintion of 'falling away', what it means.

'Falling away' of 2 Thess 2:3 does not support the idea meaning of rapture.

'Falling away' in Greek word #646 is 'apostasia' defines, depart from faith, depart from truth.

All dictionaries of 'falling away' do NOT support the idea meaning of rapture.

Also, you misinterpreting verse 3, Paul tells us, the day(Day of Christ/gathering together-rapture) shall NOT come till we shall see falling away(apostasy) first and face Antichrist revealed.

Pretrib does NOT fit with 2 Thess 2:1-3!

Rapture means UP opposite of FALL!!!

Matt 24:3-21 and 2 Thess 2:1-3 both very clearly telling us, that we shall see the signs appear everywhere first before Christ comes.

Do we know when Christ comes? No one. We can do is be ready all the time daily in our life. Keep busy for the Lord, witness gospel, living godly. Because we all shall face the judgement day to judge us.

None anywhere in the New Testament saying the future buidling of the Temple shall be built in Jerusalem after the second advent.

We do not need building of the temple anymore. Now, Christ is our temple - Rev. 21:22. Christ tells us, that He would destroyed that building of the temple in Jerusalem - John 2:19. Many Jews do not understand what Christ was talking about. John 2:21 - Christ spoken of temple is HIS BODY.

Now, we are the temple of God - 1 Cor. 3:16-17, and 6:19-20. Temple of God is a spiritual, as the Holy Spirit now dwell within us. Also, Jesus is the Church. Church is temple.

We do not need future sacrifices and offerings of animals anymore. Because Christ already sacrifice his body on the cross for us. He said, "It is FINISHED!" - John 19:30. No longer we are under the old covenant. Now, we are under the new covenant - Heb. 8:13.

When Christ comes again, we shall worshipping TOWARD Jesus Christ in person, as he is our temple forever and ever!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

but the rest of the dead lived not again the thousand years were finished. this is the FIRST RESURRECTION.

blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION; on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall regin with him a thousand years.
rev 20:5-6

see I cor 15;50-53, I thess 4:13-16 both fit with rev 20:5-6 i can see cleary One ressurrection at second advent. refer to John 5:25-29

i believe there one rapture and resurrection are same time at second coming of Jesus christ then Jesus will judge all nations. when Jesus finish judge and set up a enterality kindgom as forever.

 

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,

Two events mentioned here:
1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2) our gathering together unto him

Titus 2:13 (KJV1873):
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Two events mentioned here:
1) blessed hope
2) the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

These two events are mentioned seperately
throughout the Bible. The Rapture, which
was a mystery in the O.T. is now mentioned
in the N.T.

Rapture Passages (the gathering):

Matthew 24:31-44
Mark 13
Luke 21
John 14:1-3
Romans 8:19
1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 15:51-53, 16:22
Philippians 3:20-21, 4:5
Colossians 3:4
1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:19, 4:13-18, 5:9,23
2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3
1 Timothy 6:14
2 Timothy 4:1,8
Hebrews 9:28
1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4
1 John 2:28-3:2
Jude 1:21
Revelation 2:25

Second Advent Passages
(Jesus comes again in power and glory):

Daniel 2:44-45, 7:9-14, 12:1-3
Zechariah 12:10, 14:1-15
Matthew 13:41
Matthew 24:15-30, 26:64
Mark 13
Luke 21
Acts 1:9-11, 3:19-21
1 Thessalonians 3:13
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2:8
1 Peter 4:12-19
2 Peter 3:1-14
Jude 1:14-15
Revelation 4-19

 

DeafPostTrib: "We can do is be ready all the
time daily in our life. Keep Busy for the Lord,
witness gospel, living godly. Because we
shall all face judgement day to judge us."

Good things to do, wrong reason.
Before we were saved we had one kind of
judgement to face: damnation for eternity.
After we are saved by Jesus, we face
the Bema Seat of Christ. "Bema" is old
Greek sports event. The Bema is where
the big boss gives out the rewards to
the best atheletes. We who belong to
Jesus are to be good "judged" by Jesus
at the awards banquet in heaven, the
Wedding Supper of the Lamb.
This is a big diffrence from the lost who
must face a judgement of condemnation.
We should do all these good things because
we love the Jesus who has ALREADY TOTALLY
SAVED us. Amen!

 

DeafPostTrib: "Pretrib does not fit
twith 2 Thess 2:1-3."

Same song, same chorus.
Maybe if you sign it with both
hands as one, then people will
believe?

Brumleyj: " ... rev 20:5-6
I can see clearly One resurrection
at second advent, ... "

Sign FIRST
Sign FIRST AND ONLY
Is there a difference in these
two signs?
(I don't know, but would like to know).
If the signs are two diffent signs,
which is the sign in Revelation 20:4-5?

There are two groups of people in
Revelation 20:4

1. those on thorones
2. those beheaded

I believe these to be two
seperate groups resurrected
at different times for different
reasons

1. Those on thrones
at the Pre-Tribulation Rapture time

2. Those Beheaded at the
Second Advent.

Above i've clearly shown the different
passages about the pretrib event
and the postrib event

There is nothing in the English Language
that limits the word "first" to ONE.
There is nothing in the underlying
Greek text that limits the word
translated "first" to ONE.

Consider: before I went to college,
i went to grade school. Here "first"
does not limit me to one school
(I went to Elk City, OK; Wellington, TX;
McLean, TX; Holdenville, OK - 4 schools)
Here first does not limit me to
one grade (I went to 12 grades - we
didn't have Kindergarden nor Transition
back when i went to school).

Nothing in Revealtion 20:1-5 precludes
multiple Resurrections - Nothing.

 

Yes, Thank you ED.
I will cut and paste these into my studies for later.

I love the BB!!!

 

Thank you Ed for the masterfull responces you have given. There is nothing in the passages that DeafPostrib has given that disproves our position.

What I would like to talk about is the matter of children, as the original poster brought up. At the rapture: what happens to little children?
It would seem that it is a matter of them either being taken, or left. As for those who's parents are left, that is one thing, and here I think that they will be left.
But there is the matter of the little children of Christian parents. Will the Lord take, let's say, both parents and leave the baby?
I think I have found a passage that speaks of this:
1Cor. 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.
Paul has here said that the children of even one Christian parent is, well, holy.
The Holy Spirit inspired writed has declared the children of at least one Christian parent as holy, so, IMHO these children will be taken.

 

I believe that God
has a solution to this problem. I don't
know what it is. I expect that when
it has happened that we all will praise
God for his Wisdom in the matter.

Personally i believe at the Pretribulation
rapture that all the little children
and all unborn children will be bodily
taken into heaven. I don't buy the
"secret rapture" where nobody on earth
knows anything has happned.
All of a sudden every pregnancy around
the world will be interrupted.
Every child shall disappear.
The world will be childless.
People will notice that!



[ March 07, 2004, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]

 

Of course the children are His. He said so!

 

ed edward, you twisting interpation of rev 20:5-6 what is not saying two group of ressurrection
i can see clearly rev 20:4 is talking about who these christian refuse to take mark of the beast and beheaded during tribualtion they will be with chirst forever.

please show me verse said mulitpe ressurrection.

john 6:39 is talking ressurrection in last day

john 5:25-29 is talking about day of judgment after following rapture and ressurrection at second advent.

2 cor 5:10 is telling us we all will face judgment of christ at second advent after following rapture and ressurrection

hebrew 9:27 is telling us when they once died and will have face day of judgment

rev 20:11-15 we cannot escape from judgment of christ. Christ will judge small,big,and deaf after rapture/ressurection.

jbrumley
ps 27:1
amem

frist and one are same meaning

 

Let's flip a coin. Pre-Post... does it really have any meaning in a true Christian's life? Only if you can't stand living anymore and you hope life is taken from you... sorta like a Christian Approved suicide.

The rapture is not a Biblical Doctrine; it doesn't stand up to the rest of scripture. It's not helping people live full Christian lives. It is a perversion of scripture that consoles the miserable.

 

There have been many God fearing scholars down through the years that have studied eschatology and have come to the conclusion, based on the Bible, that the pre-trib rapture, is, indeed the truth and not a perversion of the scripture.
I would submit that what is, "miserable", is the looking for something else, and not The Lord Jesus.

 

post-it, if you say that this was your opinion then you have a point - otherwise you do fail the Scriptures miserably. That is my opinion.

For if you are right, then you discredit the Lord Jesus Christ as well as the Apostle Paul....

And again....

There are more references, but I think these two will suffice.

 

Psalms 126:6, I just wanted to say that its pretty neat to see someone else on this board who has heard Lou Rossi preach. He has come to our church more than once and I love to listen to that man preach.
Oh I guess I can also add that Im Pre-Trib as well.
Liz

 

Sorry to Serial post but I just realized Psalms 126:6 that your from Cleveland, Ohio......so DUH the light went on....your from my church.....hummm.lol
Im new to the boards so hence I missed that tidbit the first time I posted.
Liz