The Rapture

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by The Scribe, Mar 1, 2008.

  1. The Scribe

    The Scribe
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    #1 The Scribe, Mar 1, 2008
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  2. pinoybaptist

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    I clicked on the link to the right hand side and followed more links that got me to this website which is identical to the first page opened when I clicked on the youtube link.

    I think he is one more of those false prophets of these days, with the "glory and greatness" of blacks in general and African-Americans as his primary message.
     
  3. Ed Edwards

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    I dislike the tagging of youtube entries with "John Hagee" when they are obviously damning what John Hagee says.

    There are lots of Christians and christians, 'christians' who are anti-rapture. Their favorite argument: the word 'rapture' never appears in the KJVs. It doesn't. But the way they say it "the word 'rapture' never appears in the Bible" is wrong.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 (The Latin Vulgate, 1486 Edition)

    deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

    1 Th 4:17 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Then we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe caught vp together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the aire: and so shall wee euer bee with the Lord.

    from LATIN 'simul' we get ENGLISH 'simultaneous' that is 'together'
    from LATIN 'rapiemur' we get ENGLISH 'rapture' which the KJV1611 calls 'caught up'

    So when we speak of the 'rapture' we are talking about what 1 Thessalonians 4:17 means by 'caught up'. We can discuss what 'caught up' means, but it is Clear the BIBLE talk is about a rapture (caught up) -- denying what is in the Bible is a no-no if you expect to have any meaningful view of eschatology.

    What the guy in the movie clip mean by 'rapture' I have no idea. I probably would not believe that definition was true either.
     
    #3 Ed Edwards, Mar 1, 2008
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  4. Zenas

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    Ed, I don't think you will find many Christians who don't believe in the rapture. The scripture you quote plainly shows that when the Lord returns, the faithful will be caught up to meet him in the air. But there is widespread disbelief that this will occur in connection with some "secret" return of the Lord solely for the purpose of gathering his faithful. I believe there will be a period of great tribulation, probably seven years, before the return of the Lord. But I don't think Christians will experience a pretribulation rapture or even a midtribulation rapture. We will have to endure the great tribulation along with unbelievers, and there will be countless martyrs who must die for the cause of Christ. So yes, there will be a rapture but it will only occur when Jesus makes his glorious and visible return as described in Zechariah 14 and Revelation 19.
     
  5. tinytim

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    Sorta like a yo-yo... up and Down?
    lol

    I don't beleive we will endure God's wrath that he pours out on the world.

    Now is that the whole 7 yrs, or just 3 1/2 yrs?

    That is what I have been questioning lately.
     
  6. Ed Edwards

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    Found at the site noted in the OP = opening post:
    //Tired of the Pagan Names KJV.//

    So they have their own rendering of the KJV with the real Israeli (Black) names of God and Jesus. Their Christology is messed up and their Eschatology.

    ---------------------------
    1Th 4:16-18 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    For the Lord himselfe shall descende from heauen with a shoute, and with the voyce of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then shall we which liue and remaine, be caught vp with them also in the clouds, to meete the Lord in the ayre: and so shall we euer be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore, comfort your selues one another with these wordes.

    Where is my comfort that you are
    supposed to get me which is COMMANDed
    to you in 1 Thess 4:18?

    What then is the Bible talking about
    when it says these things (items of
    interest bolded & in all caps)?

    1 Thess 4:17 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    Then shall we which liue and remaine,
    be CAUGHT VP with them also in the clouds,
    to meete the Lord in the ayre:
    and so shall we euer be with the Lord.

    2 Thess 2:1-3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the comming
    of our Lord Iesus Christ, and
    by OUR ASSEMBLING VNTO HIM,
    2 That ye be not suddenly mooued from
    your minde, nor troubled neither by spirit,
    nor by worde, nor by letter, as it were from vs,
    as though the day of Christ were at hand.
    3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes:
    for that day shall not come, except there
    come a DEPARTING FIRST, and that
    that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne
    of perdition,

    Titus 2:13 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    Looking for that BLESSED HOPE,
    and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God,
    and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ,

    Mat 24:31 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    And he shall send his Angels with
    a great sound of a trumpet, and
    they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT
    from the foure windes, and from the one ende of the heauens vnto the other.

    1Co 16:22 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    If any man loue not the Lord Iesus Christ,
    let him be had in execration MARAN-ATHA.

    1 Corinthians 16:22 (TNIV = Today's New
    International Version):
    If anyone does not love the Lord,
    let that person be cursed! COME LORD!

    Joh 14:1-3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    Let not your heart be troubled: ye beleeue in God,
    beleeue also in me.
    2 In my Fathers house are many dwelling places:
    if it were not so, I would haue tolde you:
    I go to prepare a place for you.
    3 And if I go to prepare a place
    for you, I wil come againe,
    and
    RECEIVE YOU VNTO MY SELFE,
    that where I am, there may ye be also.

    Ed redefines 'rapture2' with some Scripture
    terms:

    rapture2 n. -
    1. the pretribulation event where Jesus
    performs a resurrection1 followed
    closely by a rapture1
    2a CAUGHT VP;
    2b OUR ASSEMBLING VNTO HIM,
    -- and DEPARTING;
    2c BLESSED HOPE;
    2d GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT;
    2e MARAN-ATHA;
    2f COME LORD!;
    2g RECEIVE YOU VNTO MY SELFE;
    2h and HOPE THAT IS WITHIN YOU

    Caveat: I reserve the right to add to this definition
    as I find other supporting scriptures. These
    were just the ones on the top of my mind
    tonight.

    Sorry, my HOPE is NOT even closely threatened
    by somebody grabbing my word 'rapture'.

    And I have fulfilled the COMMAND OF JESUS:

    1 Peter 3:15-16 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    But sanctifie the Lord God in your hearts:
    and be ready alwayes to giue an answere
    to euery man that asketh you a reason of the
    HOPE THAT IS WITHIN YOU,
    with meekenesse and reuerence,
    ----------------------------------------

    Because I can
     
  7. Ed Edwards

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    //But there is widespread disbelief that this will occur in connection with some "secret" return of the Lord solely for the purpose of gathering his faithful.//

    Me neither. There isn't hardly anybody believes in the 'secret' return of the Lord. If you don't believe it, run a poll on BB (baptist board).

    Come on, lthere is going to be shouting, body changes, graves opened, Trumpets, shouts, etc. The noise alone is so great it WAKES THE DEAD (in Christ).

    Some people I know suggest that the pretribualtion Rapture/resurrection will be covered by Satan with a nuclear war -- because it ain't secret.

    I tell my deaf frinds in Christ that the first thing they will ever hear ON EARTH is the shout of Jesus saying with the voice of an Archangel:

    HERE IS YOUR NEW BODY, JUMP & I'LL CATCH YOU!

    Or other appropriate noisy shouting.
     
  8. preachinjesus

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    seems to have some liberation theology connotations to it.

    For the record there are many followers of Christ who disagree with the rapture viewpoint...myself included. I do, however have a deep abiding sympathy for those who extol the rapture position. :)
     
  9. tinytim

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    Do you know what this is?:

    [​IMG]

    Rapture practice!!!
     
  10. Ed Edwards

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    Yep, I have a friend that does Rapture Practice. Rapture Practice is better exercise than Jumping to Conclusions :)
     
  11. TCGreek

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    Good play on words, ED. :thumbs:

    I had a pastor friend who told me that I better read Tim Lahaye's books or I'll be Left Behind.
     
  12. skypair

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    The "light-rejecting" eye cannot see it.

    This is true for 1Thes 4:17 as well as for all of scripture that they have chosen to not see.

    The "light-receiving eye" will see the connection between 1Thes 4:17, John 14:1-4, Mt 25:1-13, 1 Cor 15:23, and Rev 3:10. They will realize that NONE of these requires Christ's appearance to the inhabitants of earth.

    The "light receiving eye" will see that we have 2 witnesses who have gone before us on this "flight" -- John (Rev 4:1) and Paul (2Cor 12:4/Heb 12:22-24 - which even uses the word RAPTURE).


    As to reading LaHaye -- better to be forewarned by what Paul says immediately after his own rapture account: "See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth [Moses], much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven [Christ]:" Heb 12:25 Here is the picture of this verse -- those who refused Moses were died in Egypt. Those who refuse "the Lord Himself ... the voice of the archangel and the trump of God"/"trumpet voice" (Christ) will die with the earth.

    And even Jesus attests: "For as the lightning; that shineth from one end of heaven to the other...; so shall also be the coming of the Son of man. ... In that day let him which is on the housetop and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away... Whosoever shall seek to save his life will lose it... in that night, shall be two men in one bed: the one shall be taken, the other shall be left... Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." (Luke 17:24-37) (which is "Bible-speak" for wherever Christ is, believers will be gathered to Him in the air.) Again notice -- Christ is not seen in Luke's prophecy.

    Often in His ministry, Jesus (especially in His home town) couldn't heal the sick on account of their unbelief. Might I suggest that application here?

    skypair
     
    #12 skypair, Mar 2, 2008
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  13. EdSutton

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    It's almost time for church, so I'll just say that when that trumpet sounds, I'm outta' here!
    >

    >
    >
    >
    >
    DEAD OR ALIVE!!

    Ed
     
  14. Magnetic Poles

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    For me, the jury is out on this whole eschatology of a 7 year tribulation, a "rapture", etc. I think there is a lot of square pegs in round holes to get there, but it isn't something I worry about. I figure, like the Doris Day song, "Que sera, sera". However, I still think there is a lot of mysticism and allegory in that entire construct. Then there's the whole "Left Behind" scenario, which I think has nothing to do with Biblical teaching.
     
  15. pinoybaptist

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    am on your truck, MP.

    don't understand what the whole thingamajig is about this thing.
    if the dispensationalists are right, and there will be an actual physical anti-Christ and a 7 year tribulation, ain't the child of God's problem, because they themselves say that the Lord will not allow His children to go thru they 7 years' tribulation, and if they're so sure of themselves and their salvation, what's all the fuss about ?

    if the amillenialists are right, and there's only one last judgment of the quick and the dead, and they're sure they're part of the quick, then, there ain't nothin' to worry about, either, because their judgment is over in Christ. and there ain't nothin' in the Bible in Revelation 20 about the quick being judged for hell.

    as for me and my house, we will SERVE the Lord.
     
  16. skypair

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    Well, this is always the best policy.

    To me, the "fuss" is about the "foolish virgins." They are, ostensibly, my brothers and sisters in Christ. They are so close to the truth, they "ooz" of it! But they have the "works" ("lamp") without the "oil" (Spirit). They are "prospective brides" that don't know that they aren't "known" -- "called" for sure, but not "chosen!"

    Look at 2Thes 2 where we see 3 groups. The lost, obviously. The saved, obviously. But look at those who "received not the love of the truth that they might be saved," 2:10. They were apparently under the preaching of salvation. They did not, like the lost, "have pleasure in unrighteousness." They just neglected the "oil!"

    skypair
     
  17. Justlittleoldme

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    Well, just to put my two cents worth in here. I believe in the rapture.
    I believe it will happen before the 7 years of tribulation (where there will be a literal antichrist).
    I believe when that trumpets sounds, I`m out of here! :wavey:

    The rest of you can stick around if you want to for the full 7 years or 3 1/2 years.
    It makes no difference to me. I will be gone. :thumbs:

    I guess I have lived a pretty sheltered Baptist life. I thought ALL Baptists were premillinial and pretribulation.

    I guess you can learn something new every day on this board.
     
  18. Amy.G

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    Sky, if they don't have the "oil" they aren't your brothers and sisters in Christ. No oil, no Holy Spirit.
     
  19. preachinjesus

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    One of the things that has always struck about eschatology is how much the Jewish nation was focused on the coming Messiah. They wrote books about it, had scholars that were deeply educated in the signs and times, they had conferences about the coming Messiah...they looked so hard they missed Him. They believed Jesus Christ would come as a military ruler and crush all enemies. They thought they knew how Christ would come, down to the letter...then they missed Him.

    When we confront eschatology we must remember their example and not get dogmatic about this topic. Should we believe that Jesus is coming again? Certainly, that is the biblical testimony. Should we be get dogmatic about how? Probably not, because a bunch of people already did and they missed out.

    I fully appreciate the different views of the second coming available, but urge caution at how dogmatic we get about them. :)
     
  20. Ed Edwards

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    Speaking of which, I think my left behind has gone to sleep catching up on the reading of this topic :sleeping_2:
     

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