The RCC

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Bro. Curtis, Jul 24, 2003.

  1. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
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    What do you think ? Are we wrong to call them on their claim of "the one true Church of Christ" ? Does any Baptist believe they are the chosen vessel for God's grace ? Or are they lying to us ?

    My personal conviction is this is a false religion, at best. And their claim to be free from error and posess an infallible leader, and reject any scripture that condradicts their traditions really make me worry for their members.

    Is Mariolatry blasphemy ?

    Do prayers to the saints bring us closer to the father ?

    Is Christ present in the eucharist ?

    Is the pope any more holy than any other man ?

    Basic questions, and I'm hoping some of the Baptists who stick up for the RCC chime in . But let's keep it civil, I'm sure they will be watching.
     
  2. Baptist Believer

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    Not at all. They need to know that being a member of the Roman Catholic Church offers no status before God. The true church of God is made up of people from all kinds of religion traditions and backgrounds and is not dependent upon church membership or a sacramental and priestly system.

    They are not dispensers of “grace” that will make us right with God. On the other hand, I don’t think they are lying to us (that is, speaking falsehoods intentionally), but they are merely deceived and/or mistaken.

    Yes.

    No. In fact, prayers to the saints may well turn into idolatry.

    No. All celebrations of Communion are symbolic.

    Not by nature of his office. In fact, history shows us that some popes were very unholy.

    I often “stick up” for Roman Catholic people around here when I think they are being unfairly bashed, but I have grave and profound theological differences with official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.
     
  3. Dr. Bob

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    I regularly and intentionally BASH the Catholic church and their evil/soul damning theology.

    I try NOT to BASH individual Catholics EXCEPT in relation to their stand on such doctrines.

    It's time we stood up and condemned RCC loudly and clearly and unashamedly.
     
  4. Johnv

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    Discussing it in a healthy manner is appropriate. However, we should also allow oursleves to be called on claims that we adhere to in equal fashion. Log/Speck.


    The RCC does not say that non-Catholics aren't saved.


    That is your right. Many on this board will disagree with you, which is their right.


    Oh, man, not the "infallible" arguement again. Haven't we put that one to rest already?


    Blasphemy, no. Idolatry, yes. However, the RCC forbids its members from worshipping Mary.


    Not any more than me asking you to pray for me does.


    One can interpret scripture to believe this is possible.


    Since "holy" means living in a highly moral religious or spiritual manner, I'd say, yes. some people are more holy than others.

    I don't think it's a matter of "sticking up" for anyone. It's a matter of correcting some oft repeated misunderstandings. I believe that there is much imperfection in the RCC, but I could say the same with the SBC as well, I suppose.
     
  5. Bro. Curtis

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    John, if you read their cathecism, you will see that they do consider themselves the chosen vessel. They teach that those who reject the church reject Christ and cannot be saved.

    However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.

    Link

    And I don't believe anybody is holy, in God's eyes. Certainly not the pope.
     
  6. Johnv

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    In Catholic thought, most non-Catholic Christian denoms, including Baptists, are members of the "separated brethren". The separated brethren are covered under the gift of salvation.

    Your view on the subject is understandable.
     
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    In Catholic doctrine, those outside the church are not saved. This doctrine alone shows some of the ludicrousness of Catholic teaching. Over the centuries, this doctrine has changed many times, each time becoming less exclusive than it was before. In biblical doctrine, the doctrine of soteriology has alwasy been the same. There has been no need to change it over the years. It was interesting a few days ago when Barnabas (I believe) posted several different citations of the RCC teaching about only those in the church being saved. It does not seem that anyone was interested in dealing with the expression of their doctrine. This sounds like a case where their "thought" is different than their official dogma.
     
  8. Johnv

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    The separated Brethren (which includes Baptists) are not considered to be outside the church in regards to salvation.
     
  9. John Wells

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    Many soul-damning heresies propounded by the RCC!

    The problem with the Catholic Catechism, Bro Curtis, is that papal decrees override scripture. When I have confronted Catholics on their practices, they point to their catechisms, but that doesn't make them biblical. How else could you practice these with clear conscience, as Catholics are brainwashed to do:

    1. Prayers for the dead .....300 A.D.
    2. Making the sign of the cross .....300 A.D.
    3. Veneration of angels & dead saints .....375 A.D
    4. Use of images in worship .....375 A D.
    5. The Mass as a daily celebration .....394 A.D.
    6. Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, "Mother of God" applied at Council of Ephesus .....431 AD.
    7. Extreme Unction (Last Rites) .....526 A.D.
    8. Doctrine of Purgatory-Gregory I .....593 A.D.
    9. Prayers to Mary & dead saints .....600 A.D.
    10. Worship of cross, images & relics .....786 A.D.
    11. Canonization of dead saints .....995 A.D.
    12. Celibacy of priesthood .....1079 A.D.
    13. The Rosary .....1090 A.D.
    14. Indulgences .....1190 A.D.
    15. Transubstantiation-Innocent III .....1215 A.D.
    16. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest .....1215 A.D.
    17. Adoration of the wafer (Host) .....1220 A.D.
    18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion .....1414 A.D.
    19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma .....1439 A.D.
    20. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed .....1439 A.D.
    21. Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent.....1545 A.D.
    22. Apocryphal books added to Bible .....1546 A.D.
    23. Immaculate Conception of Mary .....1854 A.D.
    24. Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the Vatican Council .....1870 A.D.
    25. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) .....1950 A.D.
    26. Mary proclaimed Mother of the Church .....1965 A.D.

    The other area I'll touch on is that Catholics (in general) have no assurance of salvation. That is because they are taught a "works salavation" and that a person's scales (good outweighs the bad) aren't weighed until their death. They believe that if they belong to the RCC and do more good than most (does God grade on a curve?), they will go to heaven.

    I have asked many Catholics "If you were to die today, do you know whether or not you will go to heaven?" The most frequent answer I get is "How can anyone know for sure? But I think I will because I am a good person."

    I don't hate Catholics or the RCC. I just wish they wouldn't put the above junk in people's heads! :eek: [​IMG]
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    Not according to their catechism and official doctrine. These quotes are courtesy of Barnabas, who had posted them elsewhere. It will save me the trouble of looking them up again.

    Lateran Council IV (AD 1215)
    [The 12th Ecumenican Council of the Church]
    The Trinity, Sacraments, Canonical Mission, etc.,
    Chapter I. The Catholic Faith
    http://www.catholicism.org/pages/lat-iv.htm
    One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved, in which the priest himself is the sacrifice, Jesus Christ, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the species of bread and wine; the bread (changed) into His body by the divine power of transubstantiation, and the wine into the blood, so that to accomplish the mystery of unity we ourselves receive from His (nature) what He Himself received from ours. And surely no one can accomplish this sacrament except a priest who has been rightly ordained according to the keys of the Church which Jesus Christ Himself conceded to the Apostles and to their successors.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Unam Sanctam
    Papal Bull of Pope Boniface VIII (AD 1302)
    http://www.catholicism.org/pages/unam.htm
    Indeed we declare, say, pronounce, and define that it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Council of Florence (AD 1438-1445)
    [From the Bull "Cantate Domino", February 4, 1441 (Florentine style)]
    http://www.catholicism.org/pages/florence.htm
    It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

    The bottom line is several (does that even make sense?????).

    1. The offical position has never been rejected officially.
    2. Those not in teh RCC are not saved but are considered heretic and pagans.

    The only alternative is that these infallible papal bulls were indeed not quite so infallible.
     
  11. ScottEmerson

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    However, to be completely fair, there are Christian denominations who believe the same. Several Church of Christ members I know believe the same thing, but I wouldn't say they are not fellow believers - just REALLY mistaken!
     
  12. Gunther

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    However, to be completely fair, there are Christian denominations who believe the same. Several Church of Christ members I know believe the same thing, but I wouldn't say they are not fellow believers - just REALLY mistaken! </font>[/QUOTE]I would say they are not fellow believers. They have baptism and Christ as the object of their faith. It is Christ alone. Incidentally, this is why Catholicism is outside of genuine Christianity.
     
  13. Johnv

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    Pope John XXIII in 1959 issued a decree which maintained that discord among professing Christians (of all faiths) openly contradicts the will of Christ, provides a stumbling block to the world, and inflicts damage to the commission of proclaiming the Gospel. The decree begins with the description of professing Christians outside the RCC as “separated brethren”. It states that, without regard to one's denimonational affiliation, all those justified by faith are incorporated into Christ.
     
  14. Pastor Larry

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    So this infallible vicar of Christ contradicted other infallible vicars of Christ. Who in the world are we supposed to believe????

    Can you not see the problem here?? This is a problem that most Catholics appear not to recognize. Changing doctrine provides no stability and offers no evidence of authority.

    FWIW, He was wrong in this. It is not discord among professing Christians but rather discord among true Christians.
     
  15. Johnv

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    The issue at hand has never been one of infallible statements. Pope John XXIII's decree is the latest on the subject, and thus is current policy. Just as the SBC issues a resolution in 2003 that may contradict a resolution in 1972, the 2003 resolution would be the one in effect.


    Unfortunately, there's a more pertinent issue. It's the issue of Baptists telling Catholics what we think they believe, and when we're told that ain't so, we tell them that we know better. That's rather presumptuous.
     
  16. Dr. Bob

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    Each of my catholic friends tell me what THEY believe, and there is general disagreement!

    I appreciate those on this thread that actually quoted pope and council and decree. Takes it out of the realm of "he said/she said" and makes it objective.

    I am not a catholic. I am on my way to hell. That may not be what catholics here or there believe, but it is what is "official" policy as printed in this thread.

    Words have meaning.
     
  17. gb93433

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    After having grown up going to the RCC and also a mother who went to Catholic school I began to see discrepancies in the preaching at the mass each week. My first approach was the idea that God never changes yet the RCC policies and "church laws" seemed to be in a state of constant change. But the fact is that I really knew little about what the RCC believed. Once I found out some of what it believed and talked with my mother about those things she told me that she didn't really believe many of those things either.

    One thing is for sure they experience religion but know little or nothing about a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

    When I was in high school two of my best friends were Christians but NEVER invited me to their church. It wasn't until about 9 months after I graduated from high school that I heard the gospel for the first time. I heard it from a man that told me later that he felt compelled to knock on my door that night. Along with him was a student I knew from one of my classes at the college.
     
  18. Pastor Larry

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    It appears that you miss some very important facts. According to CAtholic doctrine, when the pope speaks ex cathedra, he is infallible. Yet these ex cathedra statements have been contradicted by other ex cathedra statements. The current policy is contradictory to the infallible teachings of the church (according to RC doctrine). You claim the latter as authoritative in spite of the fact that it is contradictory to official church teaching. You cite the SBC as an analogy but fail in one insurmountable aspect. The resolutions of the SBC have never been claimed as infallible. The decrees of the Pope have been. So you are comparing apples and oranges.

    Again, you fail to recognize the obvious. When we cite the RC doctrine found in the Catechism and authoritative statements of the pope, we are not telling them what we think they believe. We are telling them what they should believe if they are going to be faithful Catholics. Catholicism is not a smorgasboard where you can pick and choose. The catechism makes clear that adherents are not permitted to disagree with the church and her bishops. They alone can interpret Scripture and everyone else has to follow. This is the clear undeniable statement of the catechism.

    So the pertinent problem is that Catholics do not know what the church officially teaches and some Catholics (including priests and bishops) have taken the liberty to contradict their own system by ignoring these "truths."
     

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