The Real John Calvin

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by Monergist, Nov 9, 2004.

  1. Monergist

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  2. Paul33

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    Polemics were often vicious in his time. He was much more moderate and kind than the fellows he debated with, such as Martin Luther.
     
  3. LadyEagle

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    I know Martin Luther was anti-Semitic, based on some of his writings. Have heard Calvin disliked Jews, as well - that he was, in fact, one of those who propagated the false doctrine of Replacement Theology in the church. Does anyone know?
     
  4. Paul33

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    Wow! I doubt that, but if it's true, I'd like to see the documentation.
     
  5. LadyEagle

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    So would I, but it will probably not be forthcoming, LOL. We may have to dig around for it on Google. ;)
     
  6. KenH

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    LadyEagle, just curious, do you believe that everyone who doesn't buy into your particular theological theory about Israel is anti-Semitic?
     
  7. mioque

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    "he was, in fact, one of those who propagated the false doctrine of Replacement Theology in the church."
    "
    Indeed he was. Still Calvin was influenced more than Luther by the ideas of early Roman Catholic scholasticism (men like Anselmus of Canterbury and Abélardus). That made him a lot less anti-semitic than Luther.
     
  8. Jeff Weaver

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    Some of us dont believe it is false doctrine.
     
  9. Stratiotes

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    I think that, as with any individual, they have to be viewed in the context of their times. The time of Calvin was a time of state religions and intolerance. Challenging the state religion was considered not only unpatriotic but downright treasonous.

    But, before we judge a people of any time, it is important we look at our own times and our own nation. I've said it before but I often wonder if anything they did in "the old days" was worse than legalized abortion.
     
  10. LadyEagle

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    No, it is not "my" theological theory about Israel, it is what the Bible says. Replacement Theology is anti-Semitic and the basis for what Henry Ford and Adolf Hitler believed as well as, most unfortunately, some of the people on this board. Sad.
     
  11. KenH

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    So, you equate people such as me who don't agree with your particular theological theory on Israel with being like Adolph Hitler. That's sad to hear about you, LadyEagle, plum sad. [​IMG]
     
  12. natters

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    I heard Hitler believed the world was round. Does anyone here believe like Hitler?

    BTW, good comments Stratiotes. [​IMG]
     
  13. LadyEagle

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    So, you equate people such as me who don't agree with your particular theological theory on Israel with being like Adolph Hitler. That's sad to hear about you, LadyEagle, plum sad. [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]Ken, rather than take it personal, would it ever be possible for you to readjust your thinking on some of these issues so you don't have some of the same beliefs as Hitler? Remember, Hitler claimed to be a Christian, too. I'm not calling you Hitler, but lets look at this scenario (not trying to hijack the thread permanently, just continuing this discussion with Ken that we seem to have going on in nearly every thread of similar substance - suppose I claimed that I believed life didn't begin until birth and that abortion was just removing a blob. Wouldn't you want me to see the truth?)

    [/hijacking]

    Carry on.
     
  14. KenH

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    Well, LadyEagle, would you possibly entertain the possibility that your particular interpretation of symbolic language in the Bible might be wrong?

    By the way, I wouldn't keep bringing up the subject if you didn't constantly stick the worst possible motives to any eschatology that disagrees with yours.
     
  15. LadyEagle

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    Well, that's where we differ. I believe it is literal - you believe in symbolic.

    At any rate, consider this:

    http://www.conceptwizard.com/nutoo/nutshell3.html

    And now I'll get on to my research on Calvin's anti-Semitism, so as not to totally hijack the thread. [​IMG]
     
  16. LadyEagle

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    Would anyone care to comment (without sarcasm), but honestly comment on this link and the validity to the claims about John Calvin? [​IMG]

    http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/servetus.htm

    This gets us back to the OP. I'm sorry I didn't read the link there (the print was too fine), but this print is larger and along the same vein as the OP. (My apologies to you, Monergist.)

    I find it quite disturbing and haven't even begun to research on the anti-Semitism part yet. [​IMG]
     
  17. natters

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    LadyEagle,

    I am far from being a fan of Calvin, nor do I think anti-Semitism should be remotely tolerated, but be aware of the historical context in which they lived. It does not necessarily excuse the anti-Semitism, but we are all a product of our environment to some extent, and there were very few in the church in those days who weren't anti-Semitic. For example, Martin Luther had MANY anti-Semitic statements in his writings (and even writings specifically about his anti-Semitic views), and as far as I can tell, nobody challenged him on it even though various people challenged him about practically everything else. Another example is Erasmus, who produced the Textus Receptus (the Greek NT underlying the KJV), who apparently said "If to hate Jews is to be a good Christian, we are all good Christians." So in your hunting of Calvin, just keep in mind the era in which he lived.
     
  18. mioque

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    LadyEagle
    The burning at the stake story? Absolutely true.
    By baptist standards, Jean Calvin proponent of the mixing of church and state and strong supporter of the man who made infant baptism universal (Saint Augustinus) is something of a bad apple.
     
  19. Matt Black

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    Anti-semitism was rife in all sections of the church since Eusebius and even the sub-apostolic epistle of Barnabas. Unfortunately, most Christians down the ages have taken mainly verses from John's Gospel out of context and used those as proof-texts to justify pogroms and worse...As natters has pointed out, Calvin and Luther were no more or less guilty of this sin than the average Christian of that and indeed other times.

    Servetus was a heretic, (Unitarian IIRC but mioque will doubtless correct me!), and in those days Catholic and Protestant cheerfully burnt most heretics at the stake, with the exception of Zwingli who preferred drowning in the River Linner as a way of getting rid of them pesky Anabaptists; again, therefore, Calvin was no better or worse than his contemporaries (don't want to mention the Catholics at the risk of this thread turning Pythonesque - "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!")

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  20. mioque

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    "Unitarian IIRC but mioque will doubtless correct me!"
    "
    I won't, it's close enough for this discussion.

    Calvin, being influenced by the first Christian school of thought since the end of early Christianity (scholasticism) that wasn't anti-semitic persé was less of a Jewhater than most and certainly less so than Luther.

    Maybe it is time to realize that anti-semitism was the norm for Christianity throughout most of it's history. The movements within Christianity between 150 A.D. and 1900 A.D. that weren't anti-semitic can literally be counted on the fingers of one hand.
     

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