This statement was made in the thread about arguments against the Post Trib Rapture, but it is a statement I want to focus more on. That thread has been sufficiently derailed and this statement is buried under at least 10 pages of post now so it has effectively been lost. I linked it so that anyone could look at it in its original context. My first thought when I saw this statement was that, what was being communicated was that no Jews were ever saved by the Blood of Christ, and I would hope we would all agree that it is an incorrect view, especially given that all the Apostles were Jews. Darrell C took me to task for two words that I switched out in what I saw being communicated. Saved for Redeemed, and Jews for Israel. So for the sake of this discussion I will be using Redeemed or any word with Redeem at its root to try to make my point. Although on a side note I would like to hear how Darrell C views Redeemed vs Saved, because often they are used interchangeably in Christian Circles, (although a quick Google searched showed that the RCC has given those words distinct theological implications.) Anyways back to the quote at hand. Darrell on more than one occasion has insisted on a very clear divided between Israel and the Church, so while I disagree with that view based on Romans 9-11, and other passages, I’m willing for the sake of argument to assume that point while looking at this statement. Israel then means anyone descended from Jacob or Israel, or in other words the 12 tribes of Israel. Let’s see what the Bible says about their redemption: In the Pentetuch there is a lot of verses that talk about them being redeemed from Egypt, which we do know from the NT is a type, but we will let the literal sense stand and say those are just about their redemption from Egypt, so we won’t look at those verse. In Ruth they are used to talk about a kindsman redeemer so we will leave those passages alone as well. I will also not go into Job as I have never heard him ascribed to Israel. In 2 Sam David recognizes that it is God who Redeemed him. 2 Sam 4:9 So here we have David, soon to be King of Israel recognizing that He has been redeemed from adversity. Let’s keep looking at Redeemed as it is used throughout the Bible. Ps. 19:14 Here we have David once again recognizing God as his redeemer. That Psalms are full of mentions of being redeemed or of God as the redeemer of members of Israel. Ps. 71:23 Ps. 74:2 Ps. 107:1-2 And its not just the Psalms that talk about redemption in the past tense Isa. 42:1 Isa 44:21-23 This passage specifically talks about their sins, being blotted out, and a calling to Israel to turn back to God because of their redemption. I think I have made my case the the OT shows that Israel was Redeemed in the OT. Now lets see what the NT says Luke 1:68 Again notice the past tense of Redeemed here in Zechariah’s Prophecy Its Prophecy and yet he uses the past tense, because it is a sure thing. Now I know that DC is going to point out that I have left off the next part of his sentence “by the blood of Christ” well I am getting there, I just wanted to make sure there could be no argument about Israel being redeemed. Well that is where the wonderful book of Hebrews comes in, as Hebrews sheds a lot of light on the OT, showing how Christ was shown though types and shadows (and that He is Better than all of them) Heb 9:11-15 Now I was asked to look at Heb 9:11-15 in the other thread and I went into it a bit showing how this passages shows that Christ is a Better Sacrifice, because He is shedding His own blood, not the blood of goats and bulls. The important verse for my argument is vs 15. But since it starts with “therefore” it’s always important to look at what came before. Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant Therefore since Christ is a better Sacrifice, He is the mediator of the New Covenant. What does this do? It allows for the called to receive the promise. Who is included in the called? Those under the first covenant. What is the first Covenant? The Law, and who was under the Law? Israel. It is the blood of Christ that redeems us. It has always been the blood of Christ that redeems people. To say that Not one member of Israel was eternally redeemed and forgiven through the Blood of Christ. Every member of the Church is. Is to say that there is another means of redemption outside of Christ, and his shed blood, but Hebrews makes that impossible. Now I know that DC will probably bring up the fact that I did not touch on his last sentence, of everying member of the churching being redeemed by the blood of Christ, but I will just say I doubt there is anyone that would argue against that statement, I just left his whole statement in tact so as not to be accused of taking it out of context. Also, since I said for the sake of argument that I will assume a clear divide between Israel and the Church (although it’s really hard to do so when the passage I showed in Hebrews merges them together in Christ) I decided to leave the last part of his statement alone. To go into that next statement, with the assumption of a clear divide, would cause a lot of problems when you talk about the Apostles who are all members of Israel and also the church since the statements said: not one member of Israel. I will state it again, I disagree with the quoted statement even when making sure to not switch out any words. I do not think that statement has any Biblical Grounds, therefore I cannot let it stand, as it is talking about Redemption which is a crucial doctrine. This is what happens when I can't sleep. I may not reply too much since we are still on vacation.