Featured the redemption of Israel

I agree DHK,

Those who God purposely blinded, that the Gentiles would receive the giving, will not be neglected by God.

God will just as purposely (having blinded them) open their eyes, that they find God is not slack in any promise and covenant given.

 

This is a little strange. Missing quite a bit of the discussion.

Sizing again?

Outstanding, lol.


God bless.

 

DC
Have you ever read the Scripture?
Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

All those who have been or will be saved are known to GOD. That includes all those saved by but before the sacrificial death in time of Jesus Christ!

 

This is from an eternal perspective, OR, it does not change the fact that Israel, nor anyone else, was eternally redeemed before Christ offered Himself up.

That is a distinction between Israel and the Church.

Thus my statement which was questioned in the OP: No-one in Israel was eternally redeemed. Everyone in the Church is.

You deny Scripture by nullifying many passages which teach this Bible Basic.

I have offered up quite a few passages to illustrate the Distinction between Israel and the Church, yet no-one has addressed the first one, unless we count denying this...

Hebrews 1:1-2

King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


Now, if you want to test who has read Scripture, please feel free to join in and support the doctrine which you teach.

Let's look at it again:

Doesn't change the fact that Eternal Redemption was not made complete for the Old Testament Saint until Christ died. God's foreknowledge and omniscience doesn't mean the Blood was applied to the Old Testament Saint, any more than a person is saved before they turn to Christ and are born again.

This is obvious here...

Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


No-one in Israel was eternally redeemed.

That is simply a Biblical Truth.

Their transgressions were not redeemed, because...


Hebrews 10:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Now if you care to step up and address this point and the Scripture provided to support it, and show why the Writer of Hebrews is in error, and you are correct, be glad to see that.

While the eternal destiny of the Elect was as secure as ours, that doesn't mean we create an abbreviated theology that neglects the details taught in Scripture.

They were not made perfect in regards to redemption because they were still in need of redemption.

That is a basic premise of the coming of Messiah...redemption of Israel.

You make the same mistake the First Century Jew did, not understanding that Christ came to redeem men from bondage to sin.

If you equate the Work of Christ to the ministry of God towards men in the Old Testament, you have diminished the very Cross, and are exposed as having the same carnal understanding of, not only the rejecting nation of Israel, but even of His closest disciples...who abandoned Christ when He was taken.

You diminish the magnitude of what Christ accomplished.

Now you tell me where God said "It is finished" in the Old Testament.

And I will show you where the Author and Finisher did finish it. On the Cross.

One more Scripture for you to address:


Galatians 3:12-14

King James Version (KJV)

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Paul is not excluding himself as a Jew from his teaching to the Gentiles. All were in need of redemption from the Law.

You present a fraudulent redemption in equating God's grace to the Old Testament Saint to actually redeeming men from sin.

No such redemption exists.

What you do, unknowingly, I know, but all the same...is teach men were saved under Law.

This is how you do that: you have them eternally redeemed through animal sacrifice.

You really need to familiarize yourself with the Book of Hebrews.

Now address the points and Scripture and show me where I am wrong in anything I have said here.

No-one in Israel was eternally redeemed...everyone in the Church is.

Not one person has refuted this Bible basic.


God bless.

 

Great, now explain how.

That is what you are repeatedly asked to do.


God bless.

 

I am bringing your derailment of the other thread here where it was left off due to the inability to respond to the posts.

I see you have not addressed the Scripture and points I made.

You keep asking me to repeat the same things (from Post# 61 of The Holy Spirit and the Rapture):

Iconoclast said: ↑
Hello DC....

Yes I can expand on this a bit.

in jn5:Jesus explains how He is sent by THE FATHER...He is the Elect servant Of The Lord from the servant song in Isa.40-54
He always does the Fathers will. Jesus reveals the Father during His earthly ministry and as the Servant He never acts independently of the Fathers will.

This is His part in the Covenant of Redemption which was made between the Father, Son, and Spirit before the world was and is revealed in time.
Click to expand...

I am in general agreement with this though this "Covenant of Redemption you keep speaking of has still not been addressed in regards to my posts which distinguish between the Covenants. As I said in previous posts, I view all Covenants as part of the progressively revealed Redemptive Plan of God, so don't reject the use of the term, but, I do not view all Covenants to provide the same provision.

So just reiterating that point which has gone unanswered in many posts and threads.


from Post# 66 of The Holy Spirit and the Rapture

Iconoclast said: ↑
I
am in general agreement with this though this "Covenant of Redemption you keep speaking of has still not been addressed in regards to my posts which distinguish between the Covenants.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
we could make progress with this when you do a bit of homework as I suggested.
Click to expand...


I am the only one actually supplying multiple Scriptures to support my view, and not one of them can be found to come into conflict with an Overview of Prophecy.

That stands in contrast with trying to make the Rapture occur in one general resurrection and supplying a few verses.

Again, the Scripture posted was left out. Why do you do that?

And I am not sure why I should do homework when I have presented multiple passages to support my views concerning Redemption.

Not one person has yet addressed this passage...


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


My homework has been done. I am actually handing out assignments.

Now, that should establish that is has been addressed...

...your turn.


Continued.

 

I give up with you for now. You do not want to be honest about anything.

You can respond to other issues, but when someone directly responds to your own OP...you ignore it.

Is that because you hoped to discredit what I said?

You haven't.

Grow up a little, BW. I don't really have times for these kinds of games.


God bless.

 

I have done so several times. Yet you refuse to address those points and statements and think you are somehow actually addressing something.

Just how many times do they have to be posted for you to actually address the issues?

I have done that, and quoted myself doing that several times.

Now the ball is in your court. Address what was said.

I agree, so why are you?

We both know...you know the weakness and utter absurdity of your view. You know you are in error about Covenants, and you know you are in error about the Rapture, and you know you are in error about resurrection.

I doubt that. What it sounds like is you guys were never satisfied with the teaching you sat under, and now that you think you have found the truth, admitting that you really don't know what to believe is just too painful.

Your pride is going to leave you in that maelstrom you call theology.

You have to prove ignorance, and to do that you need to address the Scripture and points made.

laugh laugh...wavey wavey...sigh sigh.

Maybe that will get through.

Well at least the vague reference to Scripture is somewhat relevant.

So how does Job, like all Old Testament believers, in recognizing God as Redeemer...

...negate this...


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


...?

What is this, the tenth time I have posted this passage and yet still no-one has had the courage to address it?

Not one of you.

This was in the first response to the OP, and all I have seen is deflection.

Okay, here it is again...are you going to tell me in your response you have addressed it?

Address it Iconoclast.


Continued...

 

So address Post # 2.

Until you do that I cannot see any point in what is only argument, not discussion, not debate.


God bless.

 

At a comedy club maybe.



You couldn't get this by the average fifth grade Baptist Sunday School Class.

Well, an Independent and Fundamental Baptist Church, that is. And I don't mean a particular denomination, I mean that in the truest sense of the words.

Supposed mysteries?

lol

Honestly, Iconoclast, do you have a condition that affects your memory?

Here is some Scripture I have presented several times...


Romans 16:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


Just answer that one Scripture, and the point which has been made repeatedly...the Gospel was not revealed in the Old Testament.

You, and your friends, have been asked several times to address this, yet you will not, because you cannot. It stands in stark contrast to your mentality which you suppose is Theology...

Supposed mysteries, eh?

lol

Now, for your proof-text:

Job 25:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

5 Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.

6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?


As I have said before, you are sloppy and lazy in your posting. I have told you before...quote the Scriptures.

Now show me where this teaches anybody was eternally redeemed.

And tell me how knowledge that God was the Redeemer supports your erroneous musings?


Isaiah 41:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

13 For I the Lord thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee.

14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the Lord, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.


It's just a fundamental truth taught from Genesis.

And by the way, in case you did need a proof-text from Job, you might try this one:


Job 19:25

King James Version (KJV)

25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Now the error becomes compounded.

Now everyone was?

Here is a little homework for you. Yes, I know, you won't publicly address the Scripture, but you can look at these in the privacy of, well, wherever you are.


Luke 1:67-69

King James Version (KJV)

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;


Luke 2:37-39

King James Version (KJV)

37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.


Luke 21:28

King James Version (KJV)

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


Luke 24:20-22

King James Version (KJV)

20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.


See any mystery there?

In a sense I do hate the teachings, just as I hate all false teachings. Doesn't mean I hate you, nor that I lack concern for you.

I am concerned for you, and that you should understand better, so that when you post on a Christian Doctrinal Discussion and Debate Forum you are not espousing false doctrines, but soundly defeating false doctrine.

lol...yup.

Same arguments offered, same responses, points, and Scriptures...ignored.

How long shall you continue, Iconoclast?


God bless.

 

You're doing what you accuse me of, lol, and I know you are not meaning to.

Here is a little emphasis as a hint as to why my statement is correct:

Not one member of Israel was eternally redeemed. Everyone in the Church is.

It is not denying that the faithful of Israel was eternally redeemed when Christ obtained eternal redemption for us, but distinguishes between the two periods. That was the context of the statement, and that is the underlying issue that is not being addressed.

When those of Israel are saved today, they are members of the Church. When one of Israel was faithful then, they were still Israel.

The point is that eternal redemption was not available to them. They were saved, yes, from the eternal perspective of Eternal and Sovereign God. But that does not mean they did not die still in need of having their sins atoned for.

I have said several times they all died having only offered up the shed blood of animals for atonement and remission of sins. Until Christ offered Himself up, their transgressions were still in need of The Atonement. They were not made perfect, but were incomplete in these regards.


God bless.

 

I have decided to move this myself, and thought that since this is the thread that this issue was brought up in, it was the appropriate place to land.

Now see the periods distinguished by the Word of God:

Hebrews 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


Now correlate that with the passage already presented which shows that the Coming of Christ was prophesied, and that fulfillment of that Coming began an entirely different era, period, Age...dispensation.

We can see it in one of the proof-texts you have tried to use, ironically...to deny that God is ministering in a different way:


1 Corinthians 10

King James Version (KJV)

10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.


Now how was God ministering differently to the Children of Israel in the wilderness, Iconoclast? Can we not distinguish between the fact that they were baptized unto Moses, whereas we are Baptized into Christ?

Is this...


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


...not a clear distinguishing of what would take place in the future...which was not occurring during Christ's Own Ministry?

Show me where the Comforter is convicting the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, and this through the revealed Mystery of the Gospel?

You will not, because you cannot, because Scripture is clear, and Christ is clear...

...He had to return to Heaven before that would begin.

Show me why Scripture made an error in regards to this ministry here...


John 7:38-40

King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.


...and you are correct in your understanding that...

Tell me you cannot make the connection between...


John 7:38-40

King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.


...and...


Deuteronomy 18:15-19

King James Version (KJV)

15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.



...yet even a woman who was not privy to the revelation provided in the New Testament can...


John 4:25-26

King James Version (KJV)

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.


...?

Tell me how a woman who had not received the Holy Ghost, and has not received the revelation of the New Testament, understood the Prophesy of Christ, and recognized that He would reveal all things...

...but you can't?

How she understood that not all was revealed, but you, who have the New Testament...don't?


Continued...

 

Show me how Christ ministered to men in His Divine Role as the Savior of the World?

How He died on the Cross in the Old Testament?

I'll tell you how He died on the Cross in the Old Testament...

...in Shadow:


Hebrews 10:1-4

King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


...He died in prophetic shadow in the sacrifices which could not take away sins.

That is why the Writer of Hebrews makes the clear declaration that...


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


And you say...

God is ministering differently today, and that demands differing eras, ages, periods, or, in other words...Dispensations.

All of this has been stated before, yet it is ignored.

Again, learn a lesson from a woman that doesn't have the Holy Ghost of this Age:

John 4:25-26

King James Version (KJV)

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

Continued...

 

But that is not the point.

The point is that God is doing something He did not do before:


Hebrews 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


Then, the fathers were spoken to by Prophets;

Now...God is speaking unto us by His Son.

All of these are acceptable:


Hebrews 1:1-2

New American Standard Bible (NASB)
God’s Final Word in His Son

1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Footnotes:

1. Hebrews 1:2 Or at the end of these days
2. Hebrews 1:2 Lit in Son; or in the person of a Son
3. Hebrews 1:2 Lit ages

Hebrews 1:1-2

New International Version (NIV)

God’s Final Word: His Son

1 In the past God to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,

2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.


They all say the same thing: something is different.

As opposed to your teaching...

Iconoclast said: ↑
In posts 11to19. Both of you got it wrong....nothing has changed....you still have it all wrong.


You are not seeing the forest for the trees.

I would agree, however, the fact that God's Word states specifically that the Message was not revealed in those times makes that point:


Romans 16:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


1 Corinthians 2

King James Version (KJV)

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:


The Writer of Hebrews warns against exactly what you are doing:


Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


He gives another warning as well:


12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.


This warning stands in direct correlation to the rebuke for those who are lazy in regards to the World of God:


Hebrews 5:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.


No-one can read Hebrews 5:10-6:12 and not see that there is a difference between what men are commanded to understand.


Acts 17:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


Continued...

 

You do.

You do, or you would recognize no-one in Israel was redeemed, but everyone in the Church is. Your denial is in the fact that you impose into all Covenants the same provision, which itself denies that it is Prophecy and is not fulfilled until a point in time after the Prophecy is given.

It is Dispensational, and that cannot be denied.

Show me a minister of the New Covenant in those Ages which precede this one.


2 Corinthians 3:6-8

King James Version (KJV)

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

This passage alone makes it clear that there is a new dispensation in this Age.

So show me one minister of the New Covenant in the Old Testament?

Show me that the New Covenant is not contrasted with the Covenant of Law here?

You will not, because you cannot.

I am declaring unto you the very Scripture that makes this an absolute truth.

You deny that the Gospel was a Mystery despite the fact that the Word of God states it both implicitly as well as explicitly.

Your charge is false.

Not sure how posting repeatedly the same Scripture you avoid is...refusing to consider it. What are we up to now, three passages you have actually attempted to address? An improvement, but you still have a lot of work before you.

Not according to your doctrine, lol...you impose the Prophet Coming into the Old Testament.

Now admit that it was Prophecy and that Christ had not come at this point, and that the Prophecy did come and things were different...

...or address the points in these few threads that show your confusion.


God bless.