The reign of amillenial theology

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Daniel David, Dec 23, 2004.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    I love this discussion. No one doubts that the early church was premillenial.

    Amill theology was invented by a fella named Origen. Origen denied the bodily resurrection of Christ. He is sort of like the first Jehovah Witness if you need a present day theology. He sought to find the 'spiritual' meaning behind the text. Why? Because he believed that the earth was carnal and therefore NOT spiritual. I guess you could say he was quite the gnostic as well.

    Anyway, with this new hermeneutic, he was able to become the first pimp of the allegorical method of interpretation.

    Along comes Augustine. He interpreted prophecy by reading a newspaper. He viewed his present day situation and concluded that he was not living in Christ's kingdom (the way Scripture presents it). He instead figured that the kingdom must be exclusively spiritual. When you combine that idea with Origen's madness, voila, Amill theology.

    Now, Origen had already been known as a heretic. Augustine however, helped to introduce ideas that made it so only the church could have the authoritative view of Scripture. You see, when Scripture becomes allegory, its interpretations are as various as the interpreters. The beauty of Augustine is that he had lived during a time when the 'church' and Rome were about to wed. Therefore, his ideas were embraced because it gave the 'church' that much more authority over its people.

    Soon, we have the dark ages. That is when the 'church' took God's word from the common man altogether. This lasted for about 1000 years. This is when Amill reigned.

    Premillers can laugh when the amillers attempt to apeal to 'church history' as it is really the dark ages they are appealing to.

    Anyway, as soon as the reformation began, and people were about to actually read the Scripture, an explosion of ideas came to light again.

    Note the connection here: dark ages produced the catholic church which kept people ignorant. The reformation put the Bible back into peoples' hands where truth was loudly proclaimed again.

    After such issues as the five solas were settled, other issues such as ecclesiology, eschatology, etc., could be taken on.

    Some preferred the same eschatology of the dark ages. Others actually read the Bible and returned to the truth of premillenialism.

    It is no coincidence that America, with its history of strong knowledge of God's word, became the center of premillenial theology. America was never dominated by the catholics, like Europe was.

    You see, if a doctrine like Justification could NEARLY drop off the face of the earth, why is it so hard to believe that eschatology could be obscured? It isn't.

    I want to see just one text that even hints at amill. I know I will be waiting a very long time.
     
  2. KenH

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    That is a false statement. At most there were some in the first few hundred years of the church who today would be classified as historical premillennialists.
     
  3. Daniel David

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    No Ken, it is not a false statement. I don't know of a single amill theologian who could pin amill theology earlier than Origen.
     
  4. KenH

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    That is no proof that everyone was a premillennialist as we understand the term today. You are assuming way, way too much based upon statements I have read by the early church fathers.
     
  5. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Premillenial is just the belief that Christ will visibly return to earth to establish a 1000 year kingdom. What do you think it means.
     
  6. DeafPosttrib

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    Tomorrow, I will be out of the town for vacation. I will return home on Jan 5th, I will catch up and reply back to you about Early Church's Statement of doctrine.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  7. KenH

    KenH
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    There was no systematic eschatology expounded by the early church fathers. To attempt to make a case that they advocated a single line of thought on the subject is not something that anyone can truthfully do. If it could be done, then there would not be the many divisions on eschatology among Christians today.
     
  8. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
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    Premillenial is just the belief that Christ will visibly return to earth to establish a 1000 year kingdom. What do you think it means.

    Certainly Irenaeus and others believed in an "millenial" period. But this was a far cry from the dispensational stuff of today. In addition, Irenaeus' beliefs centered around the fact that the soul needed time to "prepare" before before meeting God. He believed in the "descensus ad infernas" and thus felt that we all would have to have a period in "hades" before going to heaven since Christ himself set this example. His views seem quite similar to the eschatology of 2 Baruch. It is inaccurate to say that ALL, or even most for that matter, of the early church leaders were premillenial - and that includes "historic premillenial".

    While the term "amillenialist" may only a century or so old the lack of belief in a literal 1000 year earthly reign of Christ is far from new. Polycarp, Clement, Ignatius and others were not chiliasts and by today's standards would have been "amillenialist".
     
  9. APuritanMindset

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    Here's verses that back Amil...

    Christ HAS established a kingdom, not will...
    He has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son He loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. (Colossians 1:13-14)

    Christ IS a king right now, not will be...
    Then Jesus came near and said to them, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. (Matthew 28:18)

    We DO reign with Christ in His kingdom, not will...
    He also raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus, (Ephesians 2:6)

    Christ HAS brought peace to earth, not will...
    Because of our God's merciful compassion, the Dawn from on high will visit us to shine on those who live in darkness and the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. (Luke 1:78-79)

    Glory to God in the highest heaven, and peace on earth to people He favors! (Luke 2:14)

    "Peace I leave with you. My peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Your heart must not be troubled or fearful. (John 14:27)

    Christ HAS redeemed Israel, not will...
    "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people, (Luke 1:68)

    But we were hoping that He was the One who was about to redeem Israel. Besides all this, it's the third day since these things happened. (Luke 24:21)

    Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written: Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree. (Galatians 3:13)

    I hope this is suffecient. If explanations are needed, I will gladly provide those. I think the Scriptures speak well enough for themselves though.
     
  10. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Ken, a lack of a systematic theology means nothing. Their writings were premillenial. They didn't clearly outline the ordinances, their view of the 'one woman man' requirement for elders, and a whole host of other things. Amill teaching came with Origen, a heretic.

    Chuckles, this is a discussion of premill vs. amill. If you want to talk about the various kinds of premill, please start a different thread. Thanks.

    Apuritanmindset, the following groups all embrace what you are saying about the present reality:

    1. Progressive dispensationalism
    2. Revised dispensationalism
    3. New Covenant dispensationalism
    4. Posttribulation, premillenialism

    I think the prewrath view does as well, but could be wrong.

    You see, those texts do nothing to help the cause of amill theology. Believing the kingdom was started by Christ in his first coming is something I hold to, yet I am pretrib and premill.

    Your have either been greatly deceived in your study of eschatology or just ignorant. I did ask for texts that prove amill. Try again.

    Btw, the original post is undisputed historical fact. I didn't make any of it up.
     
  11. KenH

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    A problem with some of the early church fathers is that they went outside of the words of Jesus and His apostles and adopted non-Scriptural Jewish apocalyptic thought.

    This is most clearly seen in the Epistle of Barnabas. Also, Papias brings in teachings from the Apocalypse of Baruch.

    Chiliasm was not taught by Jesus nor by His apostles. There were some early church fathers who were enthralled by non-Scriptural Jewish apocalyptic writings and incorporated their teaching into their writings.

    But the Bible trumps the writings of early church fathers. [​IMG]
     
  12. APuritanMindset

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    We're not talking about the different forms of Dispensationalism. You asked for texts that back the amil position. THose are texts an amil person will use. I don't necessarily hold to an amil position. I don't know for sure where I stand. But amil makes much more sense than any dispensational view or postmil or preterist.

    Here are some other texts for you to look at. This is a list of Old Testament Prophecies fulfilled in Israel, the Church. This is to show that the prophecies that a dispensational person says need to be fulfilled have already been fulfilled. The first verse I show will be the promise made to Israel. The second will show how it has already been fulfilled. The assumption being made here is that the church and israel are not 2 seperate beings as the dispensational person would say.

    Yet the number of the Israelites will be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or counted. And in the place where they were told: You are not My people, they will be called: Sons of the living God. (Hosea 1:10)
    And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? And what if He did this to make known the riches of His glory on objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory-- on us whom He also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As He also says in Hosea: I will call "Not-My-People," "My-People," and she who is "Unloved," "Beloved." And it will be in the place where they were told, you are not My people, there they will be called sons of the living God. (Romans 9:22-26)

    I will sow her in the land for Myself, and I will have compassion on No Compassion; I will say to Not My People: You are My people, and he will say: You are My God. (Hosea 2:23)
    But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His possession, so that you may proclaim the praises of the One who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. (1 Peter 2:9-10)

    Now if you will listen to Me and carefully keep My covenant, you will be My own possession out of all the peoples, although all the earth is Mine, and you will be My kingdom of priests and My holy nation. These are the words that you are to say to the Israelites." (Exodus 19:5-6)
    But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His possession, so that you may proclaim the praises of the One who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. (1 Peter 2:9)

    In that day I will restore the fallen booth of David: I will repair its gaps, restore its ruins, and rebuild it as in the days of old, (Amos 9:11)
    Simeon has reported how God first intervened to take from the Gentiles a people for His name. And the words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written: After these things I will return and will rebuild David's tent, which has fallen down. I will rebuild its ruins and will set it up again, so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord--even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things, which have been known from long ago. (Acts 15:14-18)

    My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people. (Ezekiel 37:27)
    And what agreement does God's sanctuary have with idols? For we are the sanctuary of the living God, as God said: I will dwell among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be My people. (2 Corinthians 6:16)

    After this I will pour out My Spirit on all humanity; then your sons and your daughters will prophesy, your old men will have dreams, and your young men will see visions. I will even pour out My Spirit on the male and female slaves in those days. I will display wonders in the heavens and on the earth: blood, fire, and columns of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the great and awe-inspiring Day of the LORD comes. Then everyone who calls on the name of Yahweh will be saved, for there will be an escape for those on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, as the LORD promised, among the survivors the LORD calls. (Joel 2:28-32)
    On the contrary, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel: And it will be in the last days, says God, that I will pour out My Spirit on all humanity; then your sons and your daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams. I will even pour out My Spirit on My male and female slaves in those days, and they will prophesy. I will display wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below: blood and fire and a cloud of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and remarkable day of the Lord comes; then whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. (Acts 2:16-21)

    "Speak to the entire Israelite community and tell them: Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy. (Leviticus 19:2)
    but, as the One who called you is holy, you also are to be holy in all your conduct; for it is written, Be holy, because I am holy. (1 Peter 1:15-16)

    "Look, the days are coming"--this is the LORD's declaration--"when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. (Jeremiah 31:31)
    In the same way He also took the cup after supper and said, "This cup is the new covenant established by My blood; it is shed for you. (Luke 22:20)
     
  13. Daniel David

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    I would like to point out that belief in 'one people of God' does not help the amill. Again, I affirm this truth and am still pretrib and premill.

    Amill folk think that such a belief justifies their view over and against premill. I am pointing out (time and time again for certain other folk, not you) that such is not the case.

    There is NO excuse for not being premill.
     
  14. APuritanMindset

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    Question: What do you do with the passages used to supposedly back a pre-trib rapture that are actually passages about the second coming?

    We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who have no hope. Since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, in the same way God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. For we say this to you by a revelation from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord's coming will certainly have no advantage over those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel's voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

    so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him. (Hebrews 9:28)

    I can't be pre-trib when the passages used for the rapture are actually about Jesus' second coming.
     
  15. Daniel David

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    What you should say is that you see the rapture and the second coming as happening together. There will be a catching up in the air with christ. The question is when.

    Now, this moves away from the millenium discussion to the tribulation discussion. As I have pointed out, people who agree with the rapture and second advent being the same event also believe in the 1000 year earthly reign. It isn't either/or.

    I would be more than happy to explain my rapture position. Frankly, it has more to do with John 14 than anything else in the N.T.
     
  16. KenH

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    Sure there is. It's a false teaching. Personally, I prefer truth over error.
     
  17. Charles Meadows

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    DD,

    " Chuckles, this is a discussion of premill vs. amill. If you want to talk about the various kinds of premill, please start a different thread. Thanks. "

    As noted before my name is Charles.

    Secondly - you said, "no one doubts the early church was premillenial". Just who was this "early church"? Are you referring to Irenaeus? Justin? Clement? Polycarp? Ignatius?

    I'd challenge you that only some of the early church fathers envisioned a millenial reign - and the REAL support for that assertion is lacking for many of them.
     
  18. Daniel David

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    Chaz, where do you think they got the idea about a 1000 year reign.
     
  19. Charles Meadows

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    But who is "they" and what did "they" say?
     
  20. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Catholics are wrong about:

    1. All five of the Solas
    2. The doctrine of Christ
    3. The doctrine of the church including ordinances and polity

    Yet some 'baptists' believe they are right about eschatology. Classic.
     

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