The Relationship between God and Man

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Me4Him, Apr 1, 2006.

  1. Me4Him

    Me4Him
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    How can the scriptures be properly understood unless the relationship between God and
    man is properly understood, simply put, they can’t, that relationship is the predominant
    principle for a correct interpretation.

    Let go back to the Garden.

    Ge 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them
    have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and
    over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    God placed the “Stewardship” of the whole world in the hands of man, even the
    Stewardship of man’s own life in obeying/disobeying God,

    Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in
    the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Just as Adam/Eve were personally held responsible for their stewardship, so will each
    individuals.

    Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye
    will serve;

    2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may
    receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or
    bad.

    Adam/Eve sin brought an “indoctrination” into the world that condemned all men,
    obedience to the lust of the flesh.

    Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished,
    bringeth forth death.

    Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so
    death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    God counter the "indoctrination" of the "First Adam" with the "Second Adam", Jesus.

    1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Lu 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings
    of great joy, which shall be to “ALL PEOPLE”.


    11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever
    believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world
    through him might be saved.

    1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the
    “TRUTH”. (Jesus)

    1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins
    of the whole world.

    Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
    even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of
    life.

    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but
    is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to
    repentance.


    So far, we’ve established the fact that the stewardship God gave man over the earth
    resulted in all men being lost, and that God’s redeemption plan is as total as the
    condemnation,
    So why isn’t the whole world saved??

    The “Dominion”, or Stewardship, God gave man over the earth entitled man to make his
    own decisions, good or bad, obedience/disobedience, and without the “Sovereign will” of
    God being imposed on man’s decisions either way, and it’s a stewardship for which each
    individual will be held accountable/Judged.

    De 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

    27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command
    you this day:

    28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God,

    When you start off on the wrong foot, you end up on the wrong foot, or wrong
    interpretation, Calvin wrongly assumed that God hated “Sinners”, rather than their sin,
    and consequently:

    1. The good tiding/great joy (love) wasn’t intented for all people
    2. The redeemption plan was never meant to be as total as the condemnation
    3. God’s sovereign will is excercised against the dominion/stewardship given man over his
    life/earth.
    4. By design, some were deliberately “excluded” from the plan of salvation.
    (predestination)

    Calvin view of the relationship between Man and God was one of the total Sovereignty of
    God over man’s life,

    Calvin has God/Scripture viewing mankind from a pessimistic view point, making
    wrath/vengences so necessary it must be include in God’s plans,

    rather than the correct “optimist” view of God loving, providing a means of saving all sinners, without wrath/vengence on anyone,


    but “Covenants” can only be made when “TWO” (not one) are in “Agreement”.
     
  2. Helen

    Helen
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    Although I strongly disagree with Calvinism (I know this is a shock...LOL), I think you are wrong in several points of the opening post.

    1. Covenants do NOT require two people to agree, although they are between people. For instance, you will see in Genesis 9:12-17, God makes a covenant with people and animals. It was not necessary they agree, although we have all been grateful, I'm sure.

    2. Although God provided for the salvation of everyone, not everyone will be saved. Although He has loved everyone, not all will be redeemed. That is because we have a choice, and most choose themselves and their own way of going rather than God's.

    You do have some good Scriptural points up there, though, and thanks.

    As a note of my own, the question must be asked, "Why do people choose as they do?" I think we can find the answer, partly, in 1 John, when he mentions that perfect love casts out fear. People are ruled by fear until they accept God's love. They long for that love, but are actually comfortable with their own fears, as that is known territory and God is unknown territory.

    And so He spends history and the Bible and creation making Himself known. At least as much as we can wrap our minds around.

    When I was a little girl, about three, I had the top bunk in the bedroom I shared with my younger sister. One evening my Dad was playing with us and I was on the top bunk and he told me to jump, that he would catch me. My little world came to a screeching halt -- what if he didn't catch me? For what seemed like the longest time my fear of being dropped ruled my decision-making. I refused to jump. Finally, his pursuasion won out and I jumped....and he caught me.

    I think we are a lot like that with God. So many times we would rather stay in the confined quarters of what we are comfortable with in our own fears instead of jumping/falling into His arms. We build defenses, we depend on education, beauty, power, money, meditation, acts of righteousness, acts of charity, etc., to improve ourselves or at least feel better about ourselves.

    But we are still the same, trembling little kids inside, living in fear of being free from it all. I mean, what is there if we can't depend on ourselves?

    There's God. And He will catch those who jump.

    I know Calvinists will say "but jumping is an act" or something. Never mind. Jump. As many as jump, He will catch. He hasn't dropped one of us yet!

    Salvation is within reach of all.

    Most don't reach.
     
  3. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
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    Helen;

    I think he probably meant that the fullfillment of the Covenant takes two instead of one (don't want to put words in his mouth though) and I don't think he said that "all" would be saved. He went on to say that "we choose who we will serve, unless I am misreading"

    The “Dominion”, or Stewardship, God gave man over the earth entitled man to make his own decisions, good or bad, obedience/disobedience, and without the “Sovereign will” of
    God being imposed on man’s decisions either way, and it’s a stewardship for which each
    individual will be held accountable/Judged


    As far as we knowing scriptures, we know enough to be saved and then we grow in Spirit and Truth by the Spirit that is in man (all men).
    And then we grow in Spirit and Truth.


    Titus, chapter 2
    "11": For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    "12": Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

    "13": Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    "14": Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


    Hebrews, chapter 6
    "1": Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

    "2": Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

    "3": And this will we do, if God permit.

    "4": For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

    "5": And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

    "6": If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    I say "amen" to what he posted unless I am misreading.
     
  4. whatever

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    Me4Him,

    All of this proves that you still do not know what you are arguing against.

    So what is your view? Partial sovereignty? No sovereignty at all?

    Are you saying that God's wrath is not necessary? Or that it was not originally included in God's plan? Is Hell God's "plan B"? I am really not sure what you mean.

    "You shall call his name Jesus, for we will provide a means of salvation for His people" - that is not what it says. "He will save His people from their sins." There's the Calvinist view, and I'm not sure how much more optimistic one could be than that. It takes a pessimist to say "Jesus did what He could, but it may not be enough."
    Helen correctly pointed out the problem with this statement. Perhaps you meant something else.
     
  5. Helen

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    Brother Bob, I read this at the end and it looked like universalism to me:
    "...rather than the correct “optimist” view of God loving, providing a means of saving all sinners, without wrath/vengence on anyone,"

    Whatever, your view, as a Calvinist, of sovereignty is not what the Bible describes as God's sovereignty. Although He knows the minutae (hairs on the head, sparrows that fall), He is not a dictator of the sort Calvinism presents. He is fully sovereign and still allows man to choose. He is sovereign enough for that. Calvinism limists God's sovereignty to what man can understand. That is a false limitation.

    And also, Jesus did fully pay for all sins. All people have had their sins atoned for. It is a matter of believing now, and being forgiven. It is no longer a matter of atonement. That is a done deal.
     
  6. whatever

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    Helen, please don't lecture me on what I believe. I have told you over and over what I believe, and you continue to make false accusations like this one:
    Here's what I posted on another thread:

    If you cannot answer that question then you have no business taking anyone else to task for "limit[ing] God's sovereignty to what man can understand". If you cannot understand the difference between what I believe and what you asert that I believe then you have no business speaking against Calvinism.

    And also, the passage did not say that he would atone for his people's sins, or that he would pay for his people's sins. It said that he will save his people from their sins.
     
  7. Helen

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    Pharaoh did freely choose. God knew what he would choose and God completed what Pharaoh started, just as He told Moses He would. If you read Exodus you will find that there were a number of times Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

    But, then, I have responded a number of times on this issue.

    And you don't believe all sins were atoned/paid for on the cross?

    My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense -- Jesus Christ the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2

    But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. Hebrews 2:9

    Whatever, does your Bible leave out those verses?
     
  8. whatever

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    Helen, I know Pharoah freely chose. That's the point I am trying to make. Pharoah did freely choose to disobey God, and he did freely harden his own heart, just as God had determined that he would do. You want it to be either "God ordained" or "Pharoah chose", and I am telling you that it is both, acording to the Bible.

    And of course my Bible contains those verses, but I do not have to change what the angel told Joseph ("he will save his people from their sins") in order to affirm those passages too.
     
  9. Helen

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    However, if I have understood you correctly, whatever, you believe that Pharaoh could ONLY have 'chosen' what he did and that he could not have 'chosen' anything else, right?

    That is not a choice. That is a robot.
     
  10. whatever

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    You do not understand how infinite God can ordain that a finite creature of His can make a particular choice, and that choice still be a free choice, so you reject the notion outright. Now, who is that limits God's sovereignty to what she can understand? [​IMG]
     
  11. Helen

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    I don't claim to understand something that incredible. Maybe that's the main difference. And so I simply believe what the Bible says.
     
  12. Me4Him

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    Calvin's view was that there must be sinner in the world in order that God may demonstrate his wrath against all "unrighteousness", for "Our sake" and "His glory", however

    The more people who believe/saved, the more Glory to God, the "less" glory to Satan.

    Helen

    1. Covenants do NOT require two people to agree, although they are between people. For instance, you will see in Genesis 9:12-17, God makes a covenant with people and animals.

    Animals aren't made "in the image of", nor do they possess "Eternal life", in Hell/Heaven.

    Man, being made in the image of God, is a "GOD" who can know (reason) good/evil.

    Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us,(God/Trinity) to know good and evil:

    Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

    This ability to make decisions based on "Reason" sets us apart from the animal world.

    Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;

    But it also comes with a "Responsibility", for which we're judged.

    De 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

    27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

    28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God,

    Predestination would deny man having responsibility for his stewardship, not only over the earth, but also his life in obeying/disobeying God.

    Lu 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

    14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

    Lu 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

    16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

    17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

    18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.

    19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

    Lu 19:20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

    21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.

    22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

    23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?

    thou wicked servant.

    We will not have this man to reign over us.


    Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    Am 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
     
  13. Me4Him

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    God "foreknew" what choice Pharoah would make and "ORDAINTED" him to demonstrate his power over man, but would that demonstration have been neccesary if Pharoah/everyone believed, NO??

    God's "ultimate" plan will be accomplished either with the co-operation of man or "IN SPITE" of Man's rebellion, we can be included or excluded from that plan,

    God "Choses" according to "foreknowledge" of "our choice", if the choice was God's, none would perish, making any demonstrations un-necesary.

    I agree with your post.
     
  14. Brother Bob

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    Helen;

    Sorry I missed that quote:

    "...rather than the correct “optimist” view of God loving, providing a means of saving all sinners, without wrath/vengence on anyone,"
     
  15. Brother Bob

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    Me4Him;

    I may be wrong, but it still seems to say that If any man will take heed to the Spirit of God and choose that good part that shall never be taken away, repent he can be saved. But, he can also choose to reject it.

    Is that what you are saying Me4Him or not?
     
  16. whatever

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    The Bible says that God ordains the free choices of men. I wish you did believe it.
     
  17. Me4Him

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    "Exactly".

    God's call bring man to the point of making the decision to continue in sin (following lust of the flesh) or "Repent" of those sins, in effect crucifying the lust of the flesh. (old man)

    The "Calling" is just that, a calling, we can close our hearts/minds/ears to the calling or we can listen/heed the calling, that's where the "free will" enter the picture.

    Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


    Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    Of course "IF" you believe, you'll be saved.

    Calvin claims that the option (faith) to open your eyes is given by God, but actually it's the opposite, eyes have to be closed to reject God.

    Ro 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

    1Jo 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
     
  18. Helen

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    Brother Bob, Me4Him, thank you for the clarificatoin.

    Whatever, you cannot have something ordained to be and then call it a free choice. That is an oxymoron.
     
  19. whatever

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    Helen, Acts 4:27-28 says you can. I do wish you believed Acts 4:27-28.
     
  20. Helen

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    The second verse of that, Acts 4:28, states "They did what your power and will had decided beforehand would happen."

    That means the actions were decided beforehand. Those who participated were not foreordained. They participated of their own choices.
     

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