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The Relationship Between God's Grace & Lordship Legalism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Lou Martuneac, Jul 22, 2008.

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  1. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac New Member

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    Following is another helpful analysis of the doctrinal errors in the Lordship Salvation position. This is written by Pastor George Zeller.

    For additional articles documenting the doctrinal errors of Lordship Salvation visit the series, Saved by Grace Alone: A Biblical Analysis of Lordship Salvation.

    LM
     
    #1 Lou Martuneac, Jul 22, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2008
  2. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    I'm not sure why letting Jesus be Lord of our lives is wrong. Paul didn't think so, he called Jesus Lord many times. if Jesus isn't Lord of our lives then who is?
     
    #2 donnA, Jul 23, 2008
  3. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Lordship is Legalism. Wow!

    Don't we have to first establish this premise, unless that matter has been settled.

    But I'm sure you'll find sympathetic posters.
     
    #3 TCGreek, Jul 23, 2008
  4. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac New Member

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    Nothing wrong with that. The born again Christian should serve and respond to Jesus as Lord and Master.

    The problem with LS is that it requires the lost man to make an upfront commitment to obedience in "exchange" FOR becoming a Christian.


    LM
     
    #4 Lou Martuneac, Jul 23, 2008
  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    From jdlongmire: Post #60 of "Performance Guidlines..." thread: Let's let Dr. M speak for himself:


    Compare what John MacArthur actually believes and teaches from the post above to what George Zeller claims Lordship advocates believe and teach:
    MacArthur has been called one of the leading proponents of Lordship Salvation. He clearly does not believe you must "accept all the terms of discipleship" before you can be saved. You don't even have to hear the word discipleship to be saved.
    MacArthur believes salvation is entirely a work of God's Grace.

    What is clear is that those who oppose him cannot accurately and honestly state what he believes and teaches.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #5 canadyjd, Jul 23, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2008
  6. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Wow - it certainly seems Mr. Martuneac has an agenda here and just doesn't listen to the facts - just what others have said. I wonder if, as a believer, Mr. Martuneac contacted John MacArthur to discuss this with him directly instead of just slandering and misrepresenting what he says. As we can see from the above quote, JM does not believe or teach what Mr. Martuneac and those he quotes believe what he says he believes.

    Part of faith in Christ involves taking up His cross. There are way too many walking around in life saying "Well, I prayed the prayer of salvation so I'm saved. It's OK that I do things wrong - Jesus will forgive me. He won't let me go to hell." when what's truly happened is nothing. They have not submitted to Christ - have not truly put their faith in Him. They are walking around thinking they're nice and healthy when in reality they are walking corpses - just waiting for the moment of death and judgment. They will be the ones saying "Lord, Lord!" and He will turn them away.

    A life reigned by Christ will produce fruit. A life that does not produce fruit is not a life that is alive. However, an unregenerated person does not need to try to make fruit in order to be saved. That would be like hanging apples on a dead tree. It just doesn't work. But to let that person know that a life reigned by Christ will produce fruit is the proper thing to do. That from the life that Christ gives them, there will be fruit - and that Christ will be Lord of their lives.
     
    #6 annsni, Jul 23, 2008
  7. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    I think this is incorrect. It's a commitment, not buying salvation. This seems easy to understand, if a person so chooses too.
     
    #7 donnA, Jul 23, 2008
  8. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Truth does not matter to some. But books sales matter. :)
     
    #8 Jarthur001, Jul 23, 2008
  9. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    Some people choose to misunderstand. It's much like the Armenian and Calvinist debate, many choose to misunderstand and misrepresent.
     
    #9 donnA, Jul 23, 2008
  10. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    (Emphasis mine).

    Donna this is VERY true! But then, this type of understanding doesn't sell books, now, does it?
     
    #10 Havensdad, Jul 23, 2008
  11. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    I have a telling question for all on these "Lordship Salvation" threads, I believe.

    There are, to my knowledge, two individuals in Scripture who are spoken of as righteous/just (or their deeds are) three times each, aside from the Lord Jesus Christ. And one of these two is the only individual specifically identified in Scripture as being among the 'godly'. I consider these two to be the Biblical "Saints of saints", based on what Scripture's own words in what it says.

    Without anyone looking it up, can you tell me who these two individuals are with a "Yes, I know". type of answer, if you do in fact know?? (Don't want to give it away, for the rest of the BB, just yet, you see.) ;)

    If you perchance do not know this for certain, would you like to hazard an open guess?

    Incidentally, this is not just for fun, but does have bearing on the threads, here.

    Oh yeah, happy guessing! :thumbs:

    Ed
     
    #11 EdSutton, Jul 23, 2008
  12. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Out of curiosity, since you brought up the word, where does the Bible ever say that salvation/eternal life is or requires a commitment, or use commit to refer to receiving this? I know of more than one place where it says this is a gift of God and based on 'believing/faith", though. I also know of more than one place where a saved individual spoke of 'commiting' something, but not in the context of receiving salvation, as well.

    Please enlighten me.

    Ed
     
    #12 EdSutton, Jul 23, 2008
  13. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Yes, I know. Actually, though, there are three.

    Yes, I have heard the argument you are going to present before.

    No, it is not based on actual Lordship salvation, but a complete misunderstanding of it.

    No, the fact that they did sinful things, does not in any way contradict L.S., because L.S. actually teaches that a man can fall into sin, according to Macarthur, "for years".

    I apologize if this is not where you are going. But I have heard this (the one I just quickly outlined) argument hundreds of times, and it shows, much like Donna suggested, that the people on the other side are simply inventing reasons to argue.
     
    #13 Havensdad, Jul 23, 2008
  14. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    "Pistis" (in its many forms) is not a mental belief. It is a heartfelt abiding trust. As in "trust in the Lord Jesus Christ" to be saved (not merely give a mental assent to His existence).

    If I have a disease, and the cure costs a million dollars, but someone gives me a pill saying it will cure me, if I TRUST them, what do I do? (take the pill)

    Jesus, Paul, Peter, etc., were Jews. We MUST understand believing/trusting the way THEY did. So here is a question. According to the Jewish mind, when was someone "believing" or ""trusting" of people? Simple: if someone told you something, and you acted in accordance with what they told you, you "believed". If you DID NOT, you DIDN"T believe.

    In fact, the Hebrew language did not even have a word for "faith". The Hebrew word sometimes rendered "faith" in our bibles, ACTUALLY means "faithful" or "Faithfulness" (i.e. fidelity).

    For example, look at this verse:

    Hab 2:4 "Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith.

    When we think of this verse, we think of "belief". But this word "faith" actually means "trusworthiness or fidelity".

    We live in an abstract society, where someone can say "I believe in ______" and not have to back it up. But this was NOT true, in the society that Jesus and the Apostles grew up in. If someone did not act according to what they professed, they DID NOT believe it.
     
    #14 Havensdad, Jul 23, 2008
  15. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    If you don't believe salvation means we now live committed to Christ, allowing Him to be our Lord, thats your problem. Seems Paul was extremely committed, along with others who were killed for their committment to Jesus.
     
    #15 donnA, Jul 24, 2008
  16. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac New Member

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    The LS debate is NOT primarily (for me) over what should be the natural result of salvation, i.e. discipleship, which should include a "commitment to Christ."

    The problem is that LS calls on lost men to resolve to a commitment to "forsake sin" and perform the "good works" expected of a born again Christian. That is where the controversy is because that is salvation conditioned on a promise of works.

    LS is a promise for a promise message. A promsie from the lost for certain expecetd levels of behavior in exchange for the promsie of eternal life.


    LM
     
    #16 Lou Martuneac, Jul 24, 2008
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