The Response of Man

So, out of your spiritual deadness you had just enough aliveness to believe.

Please, address Romans 8:5-8,
5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

Actually out of spiritual deadness, Christ's words were enough to resurrect this dead soul. He did not need the Holy Spirit to first regenerate us in order for us to respond. He is The Life.

That is using your "corpse" mentality of dead...one I will deny.

 

Webdog,
I absolutely agree with you. I see it in simple terms, as I read the Masters own words in the gospels and in other scriptures such as Romans 10:17, Gal 3:2.:love2: He spoke, dead came to life. Further He invited those who heard to follow. I am sure He meant it.

 

Does Christ's "words" resurrect everyone without exception. Is everyone who hears Christ's words, with the physical hear, given a "soul resurrection"?

In John 8:45-47 The Lord addresses this issue.
45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

It would seem in these verses, that the ability to spiritually "hear" Jesus is directly proportional to a prior choice. Either "of" God or "not" of God
Jesus Christ said, the reason they could not hear.
They were NOT of GOD!
The "not of God" causes the inability to hear Jesus words.

If I have understood you correctly. You said one must "hear" the word's of Jesus before he can respond.

Jesus said, a man can't respond because he can't hear, and he can't hear because he is not of God.

BTW. Those "of God" can and will respond.

John 6:63
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all.

The flesh can physically hear the words of Christ, But The Holy Spirit must give spiritual Life before a man can "spiritually hear" and believe.

I don't mind you denying my "corpse" mentality of dead, but in the interest of
Biblical debate use the Bible to deny it.

(Ephs. 2:1-3)
1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Notice the extent of this deadness.
There is no spark in this dead pile of ashes.

 

Slave,

(Ephs. 2:1-3)
1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Notice the extent of this deadness.
There is no spark in this dead pile of ashes.
Reply With Quote


Several words in here that are not corpse like. Some I underlined.

 

Now see, that's what WE believe. Christ's words regenerate the soul so that it can believe. But they only regenerate the one's who he gives ears to hear them.

 

Just because the Spirit is dead does not mean that the body cannot walk around.

The body is alive. The SPIRIT is dead.

 

Spiritual deadness deals with inability of spiritual life. All the motions underlined prove the spiritual deadness.

 

Not disputing the spiritual death, only the corpse analogy. The ears worked fine as well I surmise.

 

See post 64 dealing with the ears.

This has been addressed.

 

Thanks, I saw it.
Quote:
He did not need the Holy Spirit to first regenerate us in order for us to respond.
John 6:63
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all.

The flesh can physically hear the words of Christ, But The Holy Spirit must give spiritual Life before a man can "spiritually hear" and believe.

This passage does not prove that the Spirit must provide spiritual life first, before belief. It seems to be indicating that food, even manna from heaven only sustains the physical body. It contrasts with what feeding on Christ will provide, which is spiritual life. Verse 33 says it is for the world as well.:love2:

 

Yes. But the condition of the spirit of man is dead.

This is why the Bible says, "The natural man receiveth no the things of the spirit of God neither can he..."

This is why the Bible says, "There is none that seeketh after God."

This is why the bible says, "The carnal (fleshly not spiritual) mind is enmity with God and is not subject to the law of God neither indeed can it be..."


This is why Jeremiah said, "The heart is desperately wicked, deceitful above all things..."

Because man is spiritually dead.

He cannot worship God. He cannot respond to God because God is a Spirit. He must be made spiritual in order to respond to God.

That's why John said in I John 5:1 "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ HAS BEEN born of God..."

He had to be born of God BEFORE he could believe that Jesus is the Christ.

 

Can God speak to the spiritually dead?

You may have never considered this, but when you say the spiritually dead cannot respond to God, you are also denying that God has the power and ability to speak to them.

The spiritually dead are not like a corpse, the rich man who died and went to hell in Luke 16 carried on a conversation with Abraham who is spiritually alive.

If Abraham could speak to a spiritually dead man, can't God?

And that is one of the great errors of Calvinism, that it likens spiritual death to physical death when the scriptures clearly refute this.

 

You, as is your custom, did not address the verse. See post 103 on the Sovereignty, free will thread.

You falsely accuse Calvinists of never using Bible and every time they do you dismiss it.

 

I have never said Calvinists never read scripture, I said it "appears" they spend more time reading reformed authors. That is certainly the impression I get.

And I said they tend to let these authors interpret scripture for them. You guys all parrot each other, always have the same answers. I see almost no individual thought.

It is no different than speaking to a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon, both of which I have spent much time with. They have a "pat" answer too. They are trained to do so.

Hey, how did that James White debate go? Did you pick up any new pat answers or illogical arguments to refute non-Cals?

I bet you did.

 

Come on Winman, let's keep this a a higher level. Comparing Calvinist to false teachers like Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons isn't right.

 

no. I used to be an Arminian. They are not hard to defeat. James White wiped the floor with him.

You are not hard to defeat either- it's just that you don't KNOW that you don't have a point.

 

Jesus tells the disciples, "I have been speaking words to your physical ears that are spirit and life, but there are some of you who do not believe.

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)

Why were they not believing?
Are they not hearing with their physical ears the words of Jesus?

Do we now "assume" they where making a "free choice"?

No. Jesus tells us why.
65And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

They are not believing, because the Father had not granted it.

But some were believing. Why were they?
".....no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
The Father granted their believe.
By what means?
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all.

Because the Spirit of God gave them life that they might believe.

The context of John 6 certainly includes the contrast between physical and spiritual bread. In fact, when Jesus began to talk about His sacrifice many of his disciples were offended.

60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" 61But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, "Do you take offense at this?

His disciples were offended. They couldn't understand this "extreme" illustration their leader was giving.
"Jesus had never spoke like this before", they grumbled.

Then Jesus added something even more startling.
62Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
What if you saw Me go back to the Glory I had with my Father?

Jesus is talking about His sacrifice and ascension.

How will these people understand such High and Holy truth?

For that matter, how will anyone understand these incredible things?

JESUS said, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all".

There are several different ways the word "world" is delineated in the Bible, therefore context in each use must determine "world's" meaning.

"And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."

The "life" is an important phrase for "world's" context

The bread that Jesus is giving has a distinct purpose. It is given for "life".
In fact, the bread is His flesh, ie. His sacrifice at Calvary.
51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever
All that "eat of this bread" will live forever! These are the ones to whom this "bread" is given.

Who are these "bread partakers"? Jesus declared "All that the Father gives me....
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Now remember Jesus only gives bread for the "life" of the world.
Does every person in the world, without distinction, have spiritual "life"?
No. This is universal salvation.

Then what part of the world will have life?
Anyone who comes to Jesus.
Who then can come to Jesus?
All that the Father grants to come.

Therefore, only those that have life make up the group to whom the word "world" applies.
Jesus is here affirming, that He is giving His flesh for the "life" of the world.
Life of the world in reality, not potential.

 

Is that why you and several other Cals here lose your cool so often with us non-Cals?

Right.

 

Winnie, I surprised your up so early ,,,, have you gone to sleep yet? If not, thats not healthy brother.

Truthfully, I dont see many in here that have always been Reformed Theology practitioners. I believe most of us come from a non Calvinist world. Was there a time that you studied Reformed Theology?