The Results of The Founders Ministry, PDC and Calvinism in Combination

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by gb93433, Jun 22, 2009.

  1. gb93433

    gb93433
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    Earlier I came across a document and it should shock us of what may come in the future if we do not heed the warning. There is an entire document warning of the theological dangers and practices that nearly took over Germantown Baptist Church. It is a frightening expose of the Founders ministry, PDC, and calvinism combined in one church.

    They can be downloaded at http://www.gbcsaved.com/pdfgermantown.htm
     
  2. Martin

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    A doctrine stands or falls as it is judged by the Word of God. How a church responds to a doctrine is not a determinative factor of the truthfulness of a doctrine. Churches have split and fallen out over many different issues. Some of those issues have been important doctrinal points while others have been silly arguments over things that don't make any difference. Calvinism can cause church splits, as can any doctrinal system or theology. However Calvinism, or any other theology, cannot be judged by that. It must be judged by Scripture and by Scripture alone (sola scriptura).
     
  3. donnA

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    Good post martin
     
  4. preachinjesus

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    I have friends who were on staff at Germantown during this terrible time. I have completely no sympathy for this group that took over at Germantown.

    I don't want to get into specifics but their "playbook" for taking back their church is not, imho, a work worthy of our inspection.

    There is nothing good to consider in their actions. Maybe I just know way too much about the whole thing.
     
  5. Freedom

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    I've studied this issue for a long time. On two church pulpit committees I was the resident anti-Calvinist. Recently, I've come to believe that both Calvinism and Free Will are supported by the Bible. How can this be? They seem to contradict each other. I accept the fact that I (or anyone else) will ever fully understand this question on this side of Judgement.

    As long as both sides continue to evangelize and to preach the gospel of salvation by Grace alone tempered with the accompanying change (born again experience) that always accompanies a true conversion I'm not that adament about this any more. Of course, this is simply my own faith which I have "worked out with fear and trembling."
     
  6. sag38

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    One of the few time I actually agree with Freedom. I guess pigs can fly.

    BTW, I went to the web site. Is there a summation of the book? I don't have time to read page after page. I didn't see anything about the Founders Movement but more so an attack on Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven Movement. Plus, I didn't know that Rick Warren was a Calvinist.
     
  7. gb93433

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    It is not so much a book but a number of documents and writings. I found the pages 32-47, 117-125, and 136-139 rather interesting.
     
  8. Pastor Larry

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    The little bit that I read shows that this author is ignorant about doctrine. Twould probably be better to save your time than read this book.
     
  9. Tom Bryant

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    Is this a new record? Slams on 3 movements in one post? :BangHead:
     
  10. OldRegular

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    I skimmed a couple of sections which were primarily an attack on Calvinism.

    First I would point out that the historical doctrine of Southern Baptists was the Biblical Doctrines of Grace [what some call Calvinism] and which I believe. However, Calvinism involves more than the Biblical doctrines of Grace, it involves Church polity and governance which are not necessarily those of Southern Baptists.

    I have in the past indicated that Baptists should not use the term Calvinism because of the bias against that name. Those parts of the referenced site in the OP which I skimmed certainly indicated a bias toward Calvinism. It would be useful if there were an unbiased summary of the events at the Germantown Church. I have no desire to wade through 275 pages of what may be simply personal testimony.

    I would notet one important point that was made in the sections I read; the traditional worship service being replaced with what some call a contemporary worship service but which I call a rock concert. Sadly this practice is being followed in many Southern Baptist churches, including the one where I am a member.

    I would also note one additional point included in the sections I read, the antipathy toward the older members of the congregation. This is true in some churches.

    I have read nothing by Rick warren, don't intend to, so I have no Idea how he fits into the problem. Perhaps he is the daddy of the contemporary or rock concert type of service.

    I would be surprised if there is any connection between the Founders movement and Rick Warren!

    Hopefully someone on this forum with more insight into this problem can educate me and any others in need!
     
  11. preachinjesus

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    The whole thing at Germantown had little to do with Calvinism and Rick Warren and more to do with:

    1. Some church people losing their power. The pastor and staff were moving their church from the exclusively congregational lead where everything gets voted on to an elder lead modified congregational polity. This was a good move to make since they were rapidly growing (I believe over 5,000 on the weekend.) You can't run a 5,000+ person church like a 500-1,000 person church. It just isn't feasible.

    2. The worship style was an issue but really just a pretext. Germantown was exploding in size. They had several contemporary services and had replaced their "main service" with a contemporary one since most young families they were reaching were attending at that hour and were connecting with that service. What happened is a bunch of the old timers (note: this is a 75 year old man...I'm saying seniors arent' important but it helps with context) got upset that they couldn't have organ, piano, and hymns at their regular time.

    3. They thought they were encountering Calvinism. Yet they were sorely misinformed.

    4. This really is about power. They had lost it after having a pastor who connected with them for 30 years. This new guy comes in and starts leading the church differently. So what is this group of people's response? Yell, holler, scream, and start a website publicly criticizing the leadership.

    5. The church is dying now. All the staff had been replaced and they've gone through three pastors (I know at least two and am pretty sure about the third) since this. They run just under 1500 on Sunday. These people killed the work of God in their midst.

    6. Their disease has spread to at least two other Tennessee churches. Bellevue Baptist, across town from them, and Two Rivers Baptist have gone through similiar issues.

    There is more than meets the eye with these people. Now I know we have a variety of opinions around here (lol...saying the least) particularly about worship style and polity (not to mention people who think I and others worship Rick Warren on Sundays...I don't.) Yet the conduct of these people is so disgusting it necessitates a response. I hope we can agree how they handled this was so horrible that we should never condone such an action.

    Couple of my friends who were on staff talked about the whole at length with me. It is a sad, sad commentary on what is tearing our once fine convention and too many churches apart.
     
  12. gb93433

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    No. It shows what happened in a particular church that combined the three together. Personally I think what happened in that church is on the rise among too many churhces and leaders. Too many are taught that pastoral ministry is about leading and pulling rather than serving one another. As a result the leaders too often have an inflated view of self importance.

    A few years ago my family and I went to a church and saw the slow progression of the same sort of thing happen. In that church it was leaders who were leaving because of the lack of substance. When I confronted the pastor about that he admitted that he gone that route. I pointed out to him that he had gone downhill in the substance in his sermons. His purpose was the make the church attractive and people feel welcomed but failed to preach with passion and urgency. As a result the substance of his messages went downhill adn so did the ministry of the church. It became more and more of an entertainement center than dealing with the souls orf men and women. I saw my own daughter become less and less passionate and get to the point where she saw going to church as pointless. One year later after being away in another city and going to a different church she has regained her passion.
     
  13. Jerome

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    At the Founders site, those who want to "Reform" their Baptist church are told to:

    Establish spiritual credibility in the church before making your move.

    Initially accomodate in some way the congregation's expectation of an altar call. Remember it is just ignorance and the fallen nature that motivates their belief in the invitation system.

    Don't tackle the whole church, first just initiate a select group of men into the doctrines of grace and get them installed as church "elders".

    Avoid using the terms Calvinism, Reformed, etc. from the pulpit.

    Use a carefully screened book table to introduce people to Presbyterian and Reformed authors, starting with little things at first.

    Search your church's archives for old documents that you could use in your attempt to establish your doctrines in the church.

    Use preaching as your weapon.

    Steel yourself for attacks from unregenerate and religiously ignorant deacons.
     
  14. Pastor Larry

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    Do you have some evaluation of that, Jerome?
     
  15. gb93433

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    You may be absolutely right, I do not know. However, I would have been asking myself some questions about why they connected with the retired pastor and not the new one. I was in a church that transitioned to a new pastor. The new pastor showed great respect for everyone especially the retired pastor. As a result the congregation saw that and accepted the new pastor. Tha church went from about 300 to around 2200 in the next six years. I am friends with one of the retired pastor's sons and he speaks highly of the new pastor. The retired pastor died a few years back and the new pastor did the funeral. The deceased pastor's family is still there and doing ministry.

    A friend of mine told me about a church that a friend of his pastored where it took many years for his friend to win the people. Eventually after about 25 years he won the people. He had taken the church from being a liberal church to a conservative church.

    In one of Spurgeon's books he said that the larger the church, the more humble a pastor must be. I agree with that because there are many more ministries and personalities present.

    I believe that what we are seeing in many large churches has affected not just a few churches. I also believe that there are a number of factors fostering that sort of thing as well. If George Barna is right then we wil some very different things among those in the next generation coming up. He claims that the average church will be around 300 where the peope knopw the pastor. If he is right that will be the decine of the larger churches.

    All churches must die to self to grow. I know a church that had been very large and eventually declined to about ten people. They could hardly afford anything. The church closed down for three months. They fixed thigs up and brought in a new pastor and now it is about double the size that it was at its peak. I have been toild that the hardest thing for the peopel to do in a failing church is to admit they are failing until they see it go down to almost nothng.

    There is always more than one side. I suspect that someone had an agenda and another side had an agenda. That church is a great example of what will happen to any church that does not love one another. I doubt that any one particular person is to blame. I do suspect that there was some "Tower of Babel" present there though.

    If you were to listen to leaders today they will tell you that the pastor at that time was not the right leader. I do not always agree with that though. Sometimes I believe that God brings the right man but the people do not listen. It does take time and wisdom for a leader to be accepted as the leader and get them to the point where they trust him.

    Personally I agree with you in that church government has to change to meet the changing needs of any organization. However I am not sure those changes are always approached with wisdom. Church government is not the single most important thing. Yet I have seen too many pastors who approach it that way and lose what they already had.

    Church government is not the answer to solve any potential problems. I have seen bad congregational and elder rule governements that were corrupt. Thinking that a particular form of government will solve all problems is like thinking that a democracy will ensure a crime free society. Any organization is only as good as the people.

    Psalm 9:20, "Put them in fear, O Lord; Let the nations know that they are but men."
     
  16. Jkdbuck76

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    I do. It seems awfully sneaky, does it not?

    Of course, if one is a proponent of the Doctrines of Grace, maybe one would not find fault with the above approach. But it certainly does not seem above board. And sneaking in books by Presby authors!? Just way too spy/ninja/under-the-radar for me. But enough about that.

    My main question:
    I'm wondering why Germantown didn't have "contemporary" and "traditional" services? Most of the older folks just won't sit in on "contemporary" stuff.
    Young folks AND old folks need to be saved first and need a place in which to worship second.
     
  17. Freedom

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    My theology is actually fairly conservative. It's just my politics that is screwed up!
     
  18. rbell

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    I nominate this for Freedom's post of the year. :D
     
  19. rbell

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    After glancing over this, I came to this conclusion:

    The author of this document is a whining, backbiting, gossipping individual, who objects to basically everything, and whose overriding interest is running off the current leadership.

    Are there any valid points? Well, in 300 pages, I would hope so. But any valid complaints that may be in there are diluted to the point of irrelevance...I tend to not listen to folks who claim that everything is wrong.

    This guy sounds like he has a bad cyst...or his drawers are too tight.
     
  20. Dr. Bob

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    Agree, RBell - I read many of the [boring/irrelevant] pages and realized the author did not even understand what was happening, basic definitions, etc.

    Won't waste time or energy on it any more.
     

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