The Return of Christ

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Gina B, Jul 26, 2003.

  1. Gina B

    Gina B
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    Elsewhere, Jim posted the following:
    I've asked him to explain it further. Hopefully he will see this and do so. [​IMG]
    Jim, do you still believe that Christ will return, but possibly not in the manner described in that quotation, or do you have an entirely different viewpoint?
    Gina
     
  2. BrianT

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    I'm pretty sure Jim was only referring to the *pretrib* view of Christ's return, not Christ's return in general. His comments were in response to WisdomSeeker's, who was listing the "fundamentals" of her church, and her last "fundamental" described the typical pretrib/premill viewpoint. C.S. Murphy then said that viewpoint "is clearly proclaimed in teh word of God". SheEagle said "By your own admission, Jim, you are not a fundamentalist."

    The pretrib view is neither a "fundamental", nor is "clearly proclaimed" in the Bible. Many Baptists today and *all* Baptists a couple hundred years ago would scoff at such a notion. It amazes me that somehow pretrib has become a "fundamental" in the minds of some.
     
  3. Wisdom Seeker

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    Actually Jim was quoting me.

    "Jesus Christ Himself will soon come again in the air to catch up His Church to reward their service. The unbelievers left behind will go through a period called the Tribulation, after which Christ will return to the Earth to set up His Kingdom of one thousand years of righteous rule. After this, the unbelievers of all ages will stand at the Great White Throne to be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire, separated from God forever, while the believers spend eternity in the fullness of joy in Heaven with the Lord. Matthew 24:29-42, I Thessalonians 4:16-18, Revelation 19:11-20:13"

    This is what I quoted from the "What we believe" link in my churches website in answer to the original question in the other forum, which insighted Jim's comment that you quoted here.

    [ July 28, 2003, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: WisdomSeeker ]
     
  4. Gina B

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    That's why I asked what he meant Brian. I'm not pre-trib, but it never occur to me that I shouldn't be considered a fundamentalist because of it!
    Gina
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    Gina - HISTORIC fundamentalism would not have a problem with great leeway in positions on the second coming.

    Most MODERN "fundamentalists" though would most definitely be pre-trib, pre-mil.

    Until hanging around this BB, I never knew anyone who claimed "fundamentalist" who was NOT both pre-trib and dispensational!

    Shows you how sheltered a life I've had!! :rolleyes:
     
  6. lighthouse

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    Dr. Bob,

    It's good that you were sheltered. Like you I never knew people who claimed to be independent Baptist, not believe in the pre-trib doctrine. It's the same questioned that was brought to Jesus in Mk.9:10, "from the dead". They only understood the term "of the dead". They have the post view like Jn.11:24, "resurrection in the last day". I think where a lot of people have a hard time this, because this doctrine has only been around less that 200 years. What they don't understand is God works with progressive revelation. It's always been there, but now God opens our eyes to truths that pertain to us. Remember how Daniel was told to close the book, while John was told to open the book. The last days did not pertain to Daniel so it was told to him to close it(Dan.12:9). It was also told him that in the end knowledge shall be increased(Dan.12:4) and to them shall the book be opened. What I don't understand, is the people who reject the pre-trib doctrine, don't study the verses you provide. If they studied themselves approved, they would know the truth.
     
  7. DeafPosttrib

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    Dr. Bob Griffin

    you say,

    Not true.

    I let you know I am truly fundamentalist, while I do not agree with pre-trib abd dispensationalism.

    Please defintion 'fundamentalist', what it means?
     
  8. DeafPosttrib

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    Pretribulationism doctrine was not being exist during Early Church till 19th Century. None of the Early Church Fathers taught on two phases of the second advent for the first of 18 centuries.

    In fact, the Bible does not teach there are two phases of the second advent.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  9. blackbird

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    The vast majority of Southern Baptists(In my opinion) do not really know that they are premills! Its because of two things--(1) Their pastor does not preach on the subject enough--either because he wants to steer away from controversy--or because he just don't want to get down to the nitty gritty and actually study the subject---it takes hours and hours of fine tunin' to get the plane to the end of the runway for to "take off" on Sunday mornin' or (2) He IS preaching on it enough--its just they ain't payin' no attention to what he's preachin'. The vast majority are so busy being "clock watchers" that they can hear the second hand tick louder than the preacher can preach!!

    If I had to choose between the above two--I would have to say its number 2!!

    I guess when the time comes for the rapture--all of the supposed Post and Amill preachers--on their way up will be worried about who they're gonna get to preach for um the following Sunday after the rapture---some will be amazed that they're still hangin' around after the rapture themselves!!

    Blackbird
     
  10. Gina B

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    I really resent that statement. You're talking about something that is NOT clear in scriptures. Most accept a pre-trib view because it's what they've been told, and never bother to study it out or even question it. In fact, most people in the churches I've attended are suprised to find out another view even exists!
    If I hadn't studied it out I wouldn't be at this conclusion, and I certainly don't have the nerve to say that I am 100% positive that *my* view is the only right one let alone assume that those who don't agree with it do so out of ignorance of the written word.
    Gina
     
  11. BrianT

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    How can someone be premill and not know it?!? Someone is premill if they believe in the premill viewpoint. :rolleyes:
     
  12. blackbird

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    Folks who are saved are premills--its just they don't know it because they never take time to study it and understand it!

    Blackbird
     
  13. BrianT

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    Um, right. Whatever you say. It must be nice to know what everyone else has studied. [​IMG]
     
  14. lighthouse

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    Unchained,

    Pretrib and the rapture is clear in the Scriptures. As I was telling Dr. Bob, I never knew an Independant Baptist not believe in the pre-trib doctrine until I joined the BB. Don't be offended. By the way, I did not just believe it because someone told it to me, I studied the whole thing out. I have preaced this message with numerous Scriptures in Old Testament and New.
     
  15. Dr. Bob

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    Not true.

    I let you know I am truly fundamentalist, while I do not agree with pre-trib abd dispensationalism.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Okay. Let's try this s-l-o-w-l-y. Did I know you before our contact on the BB? If so, then I apologize for what I said.

    BTW, who ARE you?
     
  16. Gina B

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    I typed out my reply and lost it, grrr! It's ok, it needed shortened. [​IMG]
    The pre-trib rapture most people believe in doesn't involve a return of Christ to earth. It involved us being caught up to heaven in the twinkling of an eye to be with Jesus, yet it's called the second coming. Why is that? So when he returns to earth literally it'll be a third coming? How is that scriptural?

    MT 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    MT 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    MT 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

    MT 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    MT 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

    MT 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    MT 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    MT 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    MT 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    MT 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    MT 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    JOEL 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

    At the very LEAST one has to notice that the trib. starts with the anti-christ coming to power, and we'll be here during that time.

    2THESS 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    2THESS 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    Gina
     
  17. Gunther

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    Actually this is not true. I do grow tired of reading the same rhetoric about this.

    The early church was unquestionably premillenial (chiliast). This was such a common belief, that they hardly spoke on it.

    The early church also believed in the IMMINENT return of Christ. Whether what they were going through was the tribulation or not, isn't the issue. They believed he could return at any moment.

    Let me stress something, AMILLENIALISM BELIEVES IN IMMINENCE. The failure on the part of amills is to embrace the fact that Christ will extend his kingdom to an all-encompassing earthly reign.

    So, the SYSTEM known as dispensationalism was not developed like today, a strong case can be made for pre-trib, pre-mill.

    Finally, one does not have to be a dispensationalist to be pre-trib, pre-mill.
     
  18. BrianT

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    Actually this is not true. I do grow tired of reading the same rhetoric about this.

    The early church was unquestionably premillenial (chiliast). This was such a common belief, that they hardly spoke on it.
    </font>[/QUOTE]DeafPosttrib's comments ARE true. You are confusing pretribulationism with premillennialism. Deafposttrib's comments about the nature of the rapture. Your comments are about the nature of the millennium. The early church was premillennial, but they were POSTtribulational, not pre.

    The early church quotes that indicate this, do so because they believed they were *in* the tribulation. I.e. his imminent coming would be his final coming at the end of the trib.

    Actually, amills DO believe this. They just believe that it will be eternal from the get-go, not initiated by a 1000-year reign before it becomes eternal.

    True, but it's pretty uncommon. The whole basis for being pretrib is because of one's view of dispensations, the purpose of the tribulation. I think that those who are pretrib but not dispensational, don't really understand their own view in too much detail.

    Brian
     
  19. Trotter

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    OK, so I haven't been checking out the postings all week, and am a little behind. What else is new?

    As far as the Rapture's timing (pre- , mid-, or post-), it seems rather clear to me. I am unashamedly pre-trib, with the reason being that (as I understand what the Bible has to say about it) Paul wrote about it to the Thessalonians. Paul was not vague in his mentioning the forthcoming Rapture of the church. So why all the confusion?
     
  20. Gina B

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    What did Paul say to them? When did he say it would happen? Did you read ANY of the verses I posted? How do they agree with a pre-trib rapture?
    Gina
     

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