The Rod: Will God Spared It? Refuted

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by DeafPosttrib, Jul 8, 2006.

  1. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    James Newman started topic - 'The Believer's Conditional Security Refuted'. He talked about Dan Corner's book.

    So, therefore, I decide to start new topic on Joey Faust's book. This topic, I am not going to attack or criticize Faust's teachings. I am showing you of his own comments in his book, what he saying in his own interpreting verses.

    That book often emphasis talking about exclusion from enter millennial kingdom. And the mostly main theme is eschatology and salvation.

    Many baptists are premills and securists have no idea what will be happen to backslidders or Christians at follow the judgment seat of Christ.

    When I was young, I heard some baptists saying when a Christian suffer loss reward at the judgment seat of Christ, shall throw into the punishment room as being 'grounded' during millennial kingdom. Myself used to thought it.

    But, the big question is, where in the Bible saying to prove us.

    I notice Faust quoted LOT of men's comment in his book. I think he follow men's teachings and depending on men's teaching too much than God's Word.

    We must be careful what we reading men's words, never know what if their teachings could be wrong. Our responsible to study Bible more careful. I am very strictly about studying the Bible and intepreting. Because I already seen so many different opinions, views, interpretings, philosophies everywhere.

    That why, Christ warns us, that we must be beware of false prophets gone out everywhere deceiving people today.

    Early in my life as baptist during early 1990's. I thought Independent Fundamental Baptist(IFB) always teaching the truth and sound doctrines form Bible. Because, the word, 'fundamental' means strong firm and strictly. But, later throughout years, I found out there are so many errors among IFB churches and colleges on doctrines. Because when I seriously look at verses, I was shocked that they did not follow them correctly. That why I am upset with them.

    One thing that I strong agree with Joey Faust about warnings. He shows many passages from the Bible talk about warnings always speak toward us as believers. He is right. He have right to be concerning of his believers, he urges Christians to be faithful and to serve the Lord seriously. I highly respect him well. Himself is an IFB pastor. He uses King James Version. However, in many other areas I do not agree with his intepreting scriptures. I think he seems misunderstanding what scriptures actual saying.

    That book is the mostly focus on salvation than millennial as what I am consider. Because he show many verses talking about salvation issue beyond than millennial.

    He is securist. He believes in unconditional security salvation. Almost every IFB pastors in America teaching on unconditional security salvation. Myself used to believe uncondtional security salvation till about 3 years ago, I realized Bible shows lot of conditional salvation with warnings. I decided to follow the Bible rather than what men saying according Colossians 2:8.

    You will notice Faust quoted many verses from the Bible are very clear speak of conditional with warnings, yet, he teaching unconditional security salvation. HUH?!!! :(

    Often, in his book, he always emphasis on 'kingdom of God/heaven' is speak of millennial. But, none anywhere in the Bible teaching that 'kingdom of God/heaven' is a thousand years or temporaily. He just added unto God's Word, not what God's Word actual saying.

    In the next third post, I will list verses with 'thousand', what these actual saith. Also, these tell the which one is literal or figurative.

    Every IFB and SBC people ought to understanding the doctrine of salvation in the Bible. Salvation is the most important doctrine of the Bible. Because, everyone shall not escape from their own future final destiny, that we shall spend after our death or Christ comes. I know many SBC and IFB people want to be eternal life with Christ, that why they are looking for. Nothing wrong with their desire and earnest or eager. That is their blessed hope of Titus 2:13.

    Sadly, there are about 70% to 80% of SBC/IFB people are now backslidding, are ALL still on the way to heaven??? I fear. Most of them will be shocked at the judgment day follow at Christ's coming, many of them will be end up in everlasting fire. Salvation issue is NOT FUNNY. It is serious matter, everyone ought to understand salvation, so, they shall not be being end up in everlasting fire.

    In the next post, I will show you of Faust's comment with verses, show you why I do not agree with his comment.

    This post is only beginning with introduction about Faust's book.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  2. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    Let's start with Faust's firsst quote of scriptures.

    He quoted 1 Cor. 9:24-27 in the page 3 of his book.

    He said:

    Problem: There is missing part of 1 Cor. 9:24-27; this context say nothing about 'a thousand years'. Apostle Paul never teaching anywhere in his 13 epistles(books) mentioned 'a thousand years'.

    No way, that Faust cannot added unto God's Word.

    He quoted 2 Timothy 2:12 - "reign with him" Apostle Paul doesn't saying our reign with Christ shall last for a temporary period, neither, he saying our reign shall be last for a thousand years in his own epistle.

    He quoted of Phil. 3:14 - "the prize". Paul doesn't saying prize is a millennial kingdom.

    Romans 6:23 tells us, "...but the gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus Christ our Lord."

    The prize/gift is not a temporary. Where the prize comes from? From above. Is heaven, a temporary? No. Is God is a tmporary? Obivous, God is eternal.

    He quoted of 2 Thess. 1:5 "the kingdom of God". Paul doesn't saying it is a thousand years or temporary either. It is the picture of eternal life with Christ.

    He quoted Matthew 6:33 - "the kingdom of God". Again, this is not saying of 'a thousand years'. Matthew 6:33 is not talking about millennial, it is talking about looking up at God, not looking at earthly things, because everything shall be fade away. Also, it speaks of put God first above over all things as God is the first priority than everything.
     
  3. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    Above of his quote verses in the page 3 are talk about eternal, not temporary.

    Let's continue in page 4.

    He quoted Galatians 5:21 - "...shall not inherit the kingdom of God"

    He said of this verse:
    Millennial is a double portion??

    Where does he get the idea come from?

    Gal. 5:21 doesn't say 'a thousand years'. Gal. 5:21 simples telling us, if any person do wicked things shall NOT have eternal life, but go into everlasting fire, and separated from God forever and ever.

    I do not have to show you everything what he quoted verses and his comments in his book. I want to show you many important verses & his comments, that I want to discuss on these.

    He said of page 72 on the Chapter 8 'The Christian's Danger of Kingdom Exclusion':

    His teaching is unbiblical. I disagree with him.

    Many premills teaching there will be two different future judgment days - 1. Judgment Seat of Christ 2. Great White Throne. They saying, the judgment seat of Christ is for Christians only follow rapture before seven year of tribulation period. Where in the Bible saying that the judgment seat of Christ shall be occur seven years EARLIER before Christ's coming??? They saying the great white throne is for all unbelievers only at the end of millennial.

    There are half partially correct as what premill teaching, yet their teaching is completely error.

    I used to believe in two future judgment days years ago. Now, I realized, the Bible teaches us there is only ONE general judgment day follow at Christ's coming at the end of the world.

    Matthew 25:31-46 is probably the clearest passage talk about the timing of the judgement day shall be take place.

    Clear, Matthew 25:31-46 teaches us there is the only one judgement day follow at Christ's coming to gathering all nations, but apart them into two classes- sheep & goats. Matt. 25:46 tells us, all goats shall be cast into everlasting fire, but all sheep into EVERLASTING LIFE. That's simple and plain.

    He said:
    Where in the Bible saying 'reward' is so called, 'millennial kingdom'?

    Pause for now.

    Matthew 7:13-14 is not talking about millennial kingdom, because this passage doesn't say, 'a thousand years'. Use our common sense, Matthew 7:13-14 is speak clearly about two classes(goats and sheep) shall walk into two either future final destiny which shall lead them to either heaven or hell - their future final eternality destiny.

    Matthew 7:21-23 is talk about the judgment day, many goats shall saying to the Lord, that they did do wonderful works, but the Lord shall say to them, He never knew them, and send them depart from Him, into everlasting fire.

    I better stop for now. I need break from make posts on Faust's book. Later, I will continue discuss more on Faust.

    By the way, I will be happy to discuss more at topic- 'The Believer's Conditional Security Refuted'.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  4. RJS

    RJS
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2006
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    A friend of mine leant me this book a while ago, it was not very sound at all.
     
  5. James_Newman

    James_Newman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi DPT, I am going to try to break your posts down to specific arguments and answer them if I can.
    I should like to point out that Joey did not come to this conclusion from reading other men's writings. I was going to his church when he began teaching this doctrine, and he taught it solely from scripture. At the time, I don't think we knew of anyone else who believed this teaching (ie that a Christian is in danger of missing the millennial kingdom.) Subsequently through his studies he did find that there were many people who taught such a thing throughout history. In his book, he devotes fully three chapters to documenting others who have taught accountability to some degree or another. The purpose of this is not to show that the teaching is right because others believe it, but to counter the argument that often comes forth, which is 'I've never heard of this, no one ever taught this before.' But we see that you can't win, if we show that others have taught this, now we are following the teachings of men. John came not eating or drinking and they said he had a devil.

    I think it is funny that of all things, you disagree with what we teach not because believers are not warned in scripture, but that you think we do not take the warnings seriously enough??
    I agree that there is a very large problem in the churches, and that holiness has been put somewhere down at the bottom of the priority list while American Idol has been in the top ten 4 years running. The main thing we seem to disagree on is the meaning of 'kingdom of God'. You believe that a person who is not living up to the standards presented in the bible will lose their eternal salvation and go to the lake of fire for all eternity. I believe a person who is not obedient to the Lord will be chastised by missing the kingdom, and going to hell, but in the end, "he shall be saved, yet so as by fire."
     
  6. James_Newman

    James_Newman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    How many times does the bible have to say something for it to be true? I believe the bible is one book with one author, who through the inspiration of several men wrote what is arguably the greatest work in the universe. There are no contradictions in the bible. If the Lord tells you that there is a kingdom coming, and then in another place tells you that kingdom lasts a thousand years, what diference does it make if He tells you this through Peter, Paul, John or James?
    Now you are the one adding to scripture. Where do we find the prize/gift anywhere in the bible? Paul is not saying the prize is the gift.
    The kingdom of God is a subject that was very dear to the Lord. Your idea that the kingdom of God is some fuzzy, indistinct concept (looking up to God?) is not consistent with the scriptures. The kingdom is a literal kingdom on this earth with literal thrones where literal people will sit and reign over the nations.

    Acts 1:3-7
    3 To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
    6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    Jesus spent 40 days talking to the disciples about his kingdom, and after all this they still expected a literal kingdom to be restored. You would think if anyone knew about the kingdom, it would be them. If they were wrong, in thinking that there would be a literal kingdom, surely Jesus would have taken this opportunity to correct this idea before he left them, but He doesn't. Instead He tells them that it is not for them to know when the kingdom will arrive.
     
  7. James_Newman

    James_Newman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    Premils believe in a second coming of Jesus prior to the establishing of His earthly millennial kingdom. Views on the rapture are not consistent from one premil to the next. I believe that many believers will not be raptured prior to the tribulation. Regardless of the exact timing of the judgment seat of Christ, it is readily apparent to anyone who knows how to read that there is a span of 1000 years between the first resurrection and the great white throne.
    Matthew 25:31-46 is only dealing with believers.
     
  8. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    One Filipino pastor, very Arminian and very Dispensationalist, that I know of, offers the following verses as proof text for that strange doctrine (probably got it from Clarence Larkin):

    What do you all think ?
     
  9. James_Newman

    James_Newman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think outer darkness is hell. The unprofitable servant is a believer who is given the same grace and opportunity as the others to produce fruit in his life, but instead he chooses to live for himself.
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    James_Newman: // ... it is readily apparent to anyone
    who knows how to read that there is a span of 1000 years
    between the first resurrection and the great white throne.//

    HOwever, if one chooses to ignore the Millinnial
    Messanic Kingdom: the physical Millinnial
    Reign of Christ on the Physical Throne of David in
    a physical Jerusalem on a physical earth -
    then one has to make the following
    wrong conclusion:

    DeafPosttrib: // Now, I realized, the Bible teaches us there is only
    ONE general judgment day follow at Christ's coming at the end of the world.//

    THe Bible is very clear that ALL people will be judged.
    But the Bible gives several different judgements at
    different times. Jamming Christ's Second Coming Event
    right before the "end of the world" - that destroyes the
    message of the judgements.

    BTW, the KJV which has 'end of the world' in Matthew 24:3
    should say 'end of the age' (Greek: aeon) not 'end
    of the world (Greek: cosmos). The end of this age
    is the beginning of the Messanic Kingdom Age.

    The Christian accepting Christ will NOT be judged for their
    sins - Christ died for there sins and took those sins away.
    The Bema Seat (called 'judgement seat' of Christ) will
    be an awards ceremony for Christians. Some will be rewared
    to serve in the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom - thier reward
    cames over 1,000 years BEFORE the Great White Throne Judgement.


    Saying is by DeafPosttrib, bolding is by Ed:
    //Clear, Matthew 25:31-46 teaches us there is
    the only one judgement day follow at Christ's
    coming to gathering all nations, but apart them
    into two classes- sheep & goats. Matt. 25:46 tells us,
    all goats shall be cast into everlasting fire,
    but all sheep into EVERLASTING LIFE. That's simple and plain.//

    Yes, it is simple and plain - wrong, mind you, but simple and plain.
    The error likely is in the 'them' i've bolded above.
    Who is 'them'? They are THE NATIONS - they are divided into
    goat nations and sheep nations. This judgement can happen
    only at the end of this present age and prior to the
    Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.

    Clear, Matthew 25:31-46 teaches us there is
    a judgement of the nations follow at Christ's
    coming. They (the nations) shall be gathered
    into two classes- sheep & goats. Matt. 25:46 tells us,
    all goat nations shall be cast into everlasting fire,
    but all sheep nations into ETERNAL LIFE. That's simple and plain.
     
  11. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm back. Sorry I didn't reply back to you for a long time.

    James Newman,

    1 Cor. 3:15 says nothing about 1,000 years. 1 Cor. 3:12-15 talking about our works shall be revealed at the judgment day, and our works shall be testing by the fire. Many shall suffer loss their works, that means they will go to everlasting fire. Notice it says, ':' shows that, there is an opposite side between two persons of their conculsion.

    The book of Proverbs shows lot of ':' with verses talking about the between of unrighteous person and righteous person in two parts.

    "..but shall be saved by the fire" shows that a faithful servant's works shall be passed or approved by the tests(fire) at the judgement day.

    Also, you saying that a Christian shall miss kingdom(1000 years), go to hell, but IN THE END...shall be saved. Where did you get the idea come from??

    There is no difference between prize and gift, both are same meaning.

    Christ tells us, "The kingdom of God cometh NOT WITH observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold the kingdom of God IS WITHIN YOU." - Luke 17:20-21.

    The kingdom of God/heaven is not physical as observation, it is spiritual.

    Of course, faithful servants shall reigning with Christ on new earth physically follow after His coming - literally.

    'Kingdom of God/heaven' is not talking about 1,000 years, it is talking about the gospel of Jesus Christ, and our hope. Also, there is none find anywhere in the Bible saying the kingdom of God/heaven shall be last for temporary or 1,000 years. Obivous, in Dan. 7:14, 18 telling us very clear that, the kingdom, itself is an everlasting dominion, and kingdom have no end, it is eternality.

    You mentioned of Acts 1:3-7.

    Christ's disciples were still not understanding the meaning of the kingdom. Christ already taught them for 3 years of ministry. Christ was not focus on phsyical kingdom, but He commands them go and preach the GOSPEL to the world. Kingdom is the gospel. The kingdom is all about Jesus Christ and our hope.

    Where did you get the idea come from??

    John 17:15 tells us, NONE of a saint shall be taken away from the world, but, to protect them from the evil(temptations, persecutions, etc.) same with Rev. 3:10.

    Matt. 24:37-41; & Luke 17:34-37 both telling us, unfaithful servants who are not watch and ready shall be taken away for the judgment, cast into the everlasting fire. Left of these who are watch and ready shall be enter eternal life with Christ.

    Not always.

    Matthew 25:32-33 telling us, when Christ shall come with his angels, they shall gathering all nations, to dividing them into two classes -sheep and goats. Sheep represents faithful servants, goats represent unfaithful servants. Matt. 25:41,46 tell us, all goats on the left shall be cast away into everlasting fire. There is no promise for a goat shall be finally being released out of the hell beyond the judgment day.


    pinoybaptist,

    You ask me of Matt. 8:12, Matt. 22:13, and Matt. 25:30 of 'outer darkness', what I am think of them. Obivous, 'outer darkness' is an everlasting fire.

    Matthew 13:42 - "And shall cast them into a furance of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

    All of these you ask me of outer darkness, none of these saying that a person shall be finally being released out of the outer darkness beyond the judgment day. Clear, outer darkness is the eternal punishment in the lake of fire.

    Ed,

    Where did you get the idea come from??

    Isn't United of States of America- nation? Aren't we the part of a nation - America???

    Matt. 25:31-33 telling us, when Christ shall come with his angels, they all gathering all nations of the world - over 6 billion of world populations both faithful servants and unfaithful servants/wicked, to apart them into two classes, send unfaithful servants and wicked into everlasting fire. Send faithful servant servants into eternal life - Matt. 25:46.

    Very and simple and plain.

    Also, Matt. 25:31-46 say nothing about 'a thousand years'. Matt. 25:31-46 teaching us, WHEN Christ shall come again with his angels, immediately he shall send his angels to gathering all nations, and to apart them into two classes, send them into eternality destiny - everlasting punishment or everlasting life. There is the only one judgment day, not two or three judgment days according dispensationalism doctrine.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  12. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    James,

    I forget one more thing to reply you. You say:
    Yes, that's correct.

    Matt. 25:30 doesn't promise us that a unfaithful servant shall be finally being released out of the outer darkness years after or beyond the judgment day.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  13. James_Newman

    James_Newman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    But Revelation chapter 20 tells us that after a thousand years, everyone comes out of hell. Even Satan himself will not stay in hell for all eternity, he is loosed from his prison and allowed for a season to go forth to deceive the nations. Why am I not allowed to believe this book?
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    DeafPosttrib:
    //Isn't United of States of America- nation?

    //Aren't we the part of a nation - America???

    //Matt. 25:31-33 telling us, when Christ shall come with
    his angels, they all gathering all nations
    of the world - over 6 billion of world populations
    both faithful servants and unfaithful servants/wicked,
    to apart them into two classes, send
    unfaithful servants and wicked into everlasting fire.
    Send faithful servant servants into eternal life - Matt. 25:46.//

    If it is so simple, why the questions?
    The answer is that Matthew 24:31-44 is about one thing
    and the sheep nations/goat nations judgement
    (Matt 25:31-46) are a different thing.

    In a following post is a simple, Biblical, yet complete description
    of Five different
    Judgements. Nowhere does it say there is timewise
    or purposewise ONE AND ONLY ONE JUDGEMENT. The ONEness is in that
    ALL PEOPLE SHALL BE JUDGED. There is not oneness in
    how they will be judged or when they shall be judged.

    BTW, we American Christians will not be judged in the
    Sheep nations & Goat nations Judgement -- we will be
    gone to Heaven for our own rewards judgement
    seven years prior to the Second COming of our Lord
    in power & Glory accompanied by HIS OVERCOMING,
    DONE JUDGED SAINTS.
    (our sins do NOT accompany us to heaven where we are
    beaten to a bloody pulp to cleanse us from our sins).
    The only blood in heaven will the precious blood of
    Jesus poured out for our sins. Our sins are long gone
    by the time Jesus takes us to heaven.

    There is no punishement of us for our sins in
    our new/glorified/heavenly bodies. There are
    no pillories (wipping posts) in Heaven.

    Ed, //The end of this age is the BEGINNING of Messanic Kingdom Age//

    DeafPosttrib: //Where did you get the idea come from??//

    While I look up the verse, you may assume, as I do, that
    this is a correct statement:

    //The end of this age is the BEGINNING of Messanic Kingdom Age//

    You will find nothing in the Bible that renders this statement
    untrue. If you can find one saying of the Bible that
    refutes this statement, then it is an incorrect assumption.

    By contrast, your assumption:
    //When Jesus comes the second time, the world will end
    within 45 each 24-hour-days//

    I prove this wrong all the time, in nearly every post.
    This statement calls Revelation 20 a lie. But this
    assumption is false, and Rvelation 20 is true. It is over
    1,000 physical years between the Second Coming of Jesus
    and the destruction of the Earth by Fire.

    DeafPosttrib: //Matthew 7:13-14 is not talking about millennial kingdom,
    because this passage doesn't say, 'a thousand years'.//

    Your statement is true, your reason is not the right reason.

    Many of your statements are like this.
    Yes, Joey Faust is full of himself and full of the words
    of men, not God. But that doesn't automaticly make him wrong.
    He is wrong on many things, but not for your listed reasons.

    John 3:16 doesn't mention the Physical Millinnial Messanic Kingdom,
    water baptism, or the Holy Trinity. But John 3:16 is still
    true, there is still a Holy Trinity, water baptism is required
    for those who would follow Christ, and there will still
    be a Physical Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.

    BTW, the Triune God has three kingdoms.
    Don't confuse the three.

    1. Jesus said to sinners: "the kingdom is among you".
    For where Lord Jesus is, the Kingdom of God is there also..

    2. Jesus said to the saved: "the kingdom is within you"
    This is the eternal kingdom, for the saved in Christ shall
    never die

    3. The prophets of the Old Testament (OT) and the
    prophets of the New Testament (NT) predicted a
    Physical Millilnnial Messanic Kingdom: a physical Christ ruling on
    a physical earth on a physical throne of David in a Physical
    Jerusalem with a working/physical Temple.

    Strawman: "but Ed, where does it say in the Bible
    that there are 'three Kingdom's of God'". Those exact words
    are never said in the Bible. What those words mean is true
    (Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21)


    Ed:
    //The kingdom is a literal kingdom on this earth
    with literal thrones where literal people will
    sit and reign over the nations//

    DeafPosttrib: //Christ tells us, "The kingdom of God cometh NOT WITH observation:
    Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there!
    for, behold the kingdom of God IS WITHIN YOU." - Luke 17:20-21.//

    Yes, this is KINGDOM #2of3 described above; it is not
    KINGDOM #1of3 described above
    nor is it KINGDOM #3of3 described above.
    So basicly you agree with me and with the Bible:
    God has Three KINGDOMS. Pretty neat for a Triune God to
    have three KINGDOMS, eh? Isn't our Lord KING OF KINGS
    and LORD OF LORDS? Then it only seems likely He will have
    more than one and only one kingdom.


    James_Newman: //The kingdom of God is a subject
    that was very dear to the Lord.
    Your idea that the kingdom of God is some fuzzy,
    indistinct concept (looking up to God?)
    is not consistent with the scriptures. The kingdom
    is a literal kingdom on this earth with
    literal thrones where literal people will sit
    and reign over the nations.//

    Amen, Brother James_Newman -- you are so RIGHT ON!
    You describe KINGDOM #3of3 described above; it is not
    KINGDOM #1of3 described above
    nor is it KINGDOM #2of3 described above.

    DeafPosttrib: //Also, Matt. 25:31-46 say nothing about 'a thousand years'.//

    Your montra is getting boring. 'A thousand years' is only
    said in Revelation 20. Note my 'new name' that mentions many of
    the terms used to describe the event:

    Millinnial Messanic Earthly Kingdom of Christ.

    Genesis 1:1 about the creation does NOT mention the
    Millinnial Messanic Earthly Kingdom of Christ. This does not
    mean that God didn't create anything; this doesn't mean there
    will be no Physical Millinnial Messanic Earthly Kingdom of Christ.
    The non mention of something in a particular verse only means
    you can't say everything in every verse or every chapter
    or even every Bood of the Bible.

    Sadly, the 1,000 year long Millinnial Messanic Earthly Kingdom of Christ
    is NOT mentioned in 2 Peter 3:10.
    Some folks seem content to scrap Revelation chapter 20
    to ease their confusion about 2 Peter 3:10.

    The United States, lead by George Washington, helped
    rid the world of Adolf Hitler.

    This statement is rather broad, George only lead the US at
    the beinning. This statement doesn't mention a great
    Civil War. As far as it goes, this statement is correct - this
    statement just doesn't go very far.

    2 Peter 3:10 (KJV1769 Edition):
    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief
    in the night; in the which the heavens
    shall pass away with a great noise, and the
    elements shall melt with fervent heat,
    the earth also and the works that are therein
    shall be burned up.


    It seems a shame to deny the meaning of Revelation 20
    because of this verse which sumarizes thousands of
    years of the history of the world. While this statement
    doesn't mention events happening between the start
    of 'the day of the Lord' and the final destruction of
    the universe - neither does it deny what Revelation 20 says.

    So much is missed by making all people everywhere, everywhen
    go on one and only one judgement when the picture God presents
    in the bible is so clear: all will be judged, though some
    will be judged some now and some then, some here and some there
    -- but ALL WILL BE JUDGED.



    DeafPosttrib: //Matt. 25:31-46 teaching us, WHEN Christ shall come
    again with his angels, immediately he shall send his
    angels to gathering all nations, and to apart them
    into two classes, send them into eternality
    destiny - everlasting punishment or everlasting life.//


    I think you are getting Matt 25:31-46 and Matt 14:31
    mixed up??? They are NOT the same event: not the same people,
    not the same happendings, not the same time - just not the
    same.


    DeafPosttrib: //There is the only one judgment day,
    not two or three judgment days according dispensationalism doctrine.//

    Not scriptural at all. I argue for multiple judgement days
    above and in posts beyond this.
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    2Pe 3:8-10 (KJV1611 Edition):
    But (beloued) bee not ignorant of this one thing,
    that one day is with the Lord as a thousand yeeres,
    and a thousand yeeres as one day.
    9 The Lord is not slacke cocerning his promise
    (as some men count slacknesse) but is long-suffring
    to vs-ward, not willing that any should perish,
    but that all should come to repentance.
    10 But the day of the Lord wil come as a thiefe in the night,
    in the which the heauens shall passe away
    with a great noise
    , and the Elements shall melt
    with feruent heate, the earth also and the works
    that are therin shalbe burnt vp.

    You cannot believe Regelation 10 about the 1,000 years
    because some people don't understand the retorical device:
    the Summary. 2 Peter 3:8 is a summary from the
    day of the Return of Jesus through the destruction of
    the earth. 2 Peter 3:8 sumarizes Revelation 19 (the end)
    through Revelation 21. THE BIG CLUE THAT THE misunderstanders
    misunderstand is 2 Peter 3:8 which even mentions
    THE MILLINNIUM (1,000 years in Latin).

    So Brother James_Newman, you don't get to believe in Revelation 20
    cause some people don't understand the literary devise used
    in 2 Peter 3:8 - the summary. Instead of lettering scripture illuminate
    scripture - some let their misunderstanding of one scripture hid another
    scripture completely :(
     
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here is what the Bible says about 'Dispensation'.
    Taken from the NT, KJV1769 version:

    1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
    For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
    but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
    is committed unto me.

    Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
    That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
    gather together in one all things in Christ, both
    which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
    If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
    which is given me to you-ward:

    Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
    Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
    of God
    which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
     
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Five Judgements

    The Lord God is a judging God

    "To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

    A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
    B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
    C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

    The Five Judgements:

    1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
    WHO: All who will Believe
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

    How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
    (and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

    Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
    shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
    believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
    the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    "

    2. Judgement Seat of Christ
    WHO: Believers for works
    WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
    Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
    the Tribulation
    WHERE: Heaven
    WHY: to assign rewards (including
    the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
    to the redeemed for their good works
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

    3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
    (Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
    Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
    WHO: Yisrael
    WHEN: during the Tribulation
    WHERE: earth
    WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
    HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Great Tribulation

    4. Throne of His Glory judgement
    (AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46,
    2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)
    WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
    (these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
    WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
    who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
    HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
    WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

    5. Great White Throne judgement
    (Revelation 20:11:15)
    WHO: the wicked dead
    WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
    WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
    WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
    HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

    NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
    judgements above does not preclude other specific
    or general judgements. One place on the net i found
    a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
    The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
    by His revelation to us nor
    by our understaning of His revelation to us.

    May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

    --compilation by ed,
    incurable Jesus Phreaque
     
  18. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    James,

    Right now, all sinners are already died, are in the hell. Hell is a picture as reservsation room await for the judgment day. Hell is a tmporary. BUT, Rev. 20:11-15 telling us, hell shall be CAST INTO the lake of fire.

    The lake of fire is the final future eternality destiny for all sinners' name are not found written in the book of life. This is the SECOND DEATH.

    Right now, we are in "a/the thousand years' era. It runs from Calvary to second coming. 'A thousand years' doesn't taking literal exactly length time of specific 1,000 years. It represents very length time. Another time, I will list verses on 'thousand', what these saying?

    Also, There is not a hint word find anywhere in the context of whole Matthew chapter 25 talk about 'a thousand years'. Matt. 25:30 doesn't promise us, that a wicked servant shall be finally being released out of the outer darkness beyond the judgment day.

    Hell is a place for ALREADY reserved for all sinners/disobedient people await for the coming great white throne(judgement day). THEN, hell shall be CAST INTO the lake of fire. Lake of fire is the FINAL eternality destiny, that noone shall be released out of the lake of fire beyond the judgement day.

    "Outer darkness" is synonmous with hell. Understand, Outer darkness is no doubt, it is an everlasting punishment, that it shall be cast into the lake of fire at follow the judgment day.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  19. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ed,

    Matthew 25:31-46 doesn't saying anything about 'a thousand years'. Use your common sense, it tells us very clear it is the future final general judgment day follow second coming at the end of the age.

    There is no two or three separated judgments find anywhere in the Bible. The Bible teaches us there is the only ONE judgment day follow second coming at the end of the age.

    Daniel 7:9-10 telling us very clear it is the picture of great white throne. It probably is the earliest record of the Bible teaching on great white throne, it was penned about over 500 years before Apostle John wrote of Rev. 20:11-15.

    Proving 3 or 4 or 5 future judgments from the Bible is flaw, because these are teaching base upon men's logicals. Also, these are base upon dispensationalism's teaching.

    I rather follow what the Bible than what men saying according Colossians 2:8.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    DeafPosttrib: //I rather follow what the Bible than
    what men saying according Colossians 2:8.//

    That is what you say. Here is what you mean:

    I am so sure what I beleive is right that i think it comes
    straight from God. Because you don't believe the same
    way I do, you are of the anti-God.

    BTW, you attack my main idea: multiple general judgements
    of humans by God. You have not even attempeted to defend
    against the thousands of details that i've provided to
    show the general concept. You loose the debate do to
    your inattention to detail.

    My FIVE JUDGEMENTS writing is a clearly evangelistic
    message, your attack against (top level only) is a spoon
    digging out an ocean of detail. You loose the debate do to
    your inattention to detail.

    But hey, I like you anyway. Here is my dispensational theory
    and doctrine:

    ---------------------------------
    Dispensation in the NT, KJV1769 version:

    1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
    For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
    but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
    is committed unto me.

    Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
    That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
    gather together in one all things in Christ, both
    which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
    If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
    which is given me to you-ward:

    Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
    Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
    of God
    which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
    ---------------------------------------:
     

Share This Page

Loading...