The rod

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by webdog, Jan 28, 2008.

  1. webdog

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    Our small group is currently studying Dr. Tedd Tripp's Shepherding a Child's Heart. As a corporal punishment advocate, Dr. Tripp defines the "rod" as...
    "a parent, in faith toward God and faithfulness toward his of her children, undertaking the responsibility of careful, timely, measured, and controlled use of physical punishment to underscore the importance of obeying God, thus rescuing the child from continuing in his foolishness until death."

    Would you agree or disagree that this is an accurate portrayal of what Scripture is alluding to when the rod is mentioned, and why or why not.
     
  2. Joe

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    The rod is symbolic for godly discipline, correction and guidance. It is not an object used to strike a child to inflict pain.

    Imo, when you read most of the passages regarding discipline, they practically indicate all children are full of folly and if the parents don't spank or physically hurt these children, then they could be destining their children to hell.
    Obviously we know a good majority of children behave so well just a look is correction enough. So the rod is not a physical object.

    "Your rod and your staff, they comfort me" The shepherd's staff was used to guide the wandering sheep along the right path. The rod was used to beat off predators--not to strike the straying sheep .Ps. 23:4


    "Shall I come to you with a rod, or in love and a spirit of gentleness?" 1 Cor. 4:21

    And...WWJD
     
    #2 Joe, Jan 29, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 29, 2008
  3. KJVkid

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    The rod is symbolic for godly discipline, correction and guidance. It is not an object used to strike a child to inflict pain. by Joe


    B]Baloney![/B] Pro 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
    Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

    Pro 20:30 The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so [do] stripes the inward parts of the belly.
     
  4. saturneptune

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    Amen to the baloney, on your post. You are taking the Scripture out of context. Try adding the element of love.
     
  5. pinoybaptist

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    I heard a speaker once say that the rod is not a physical object used to inflict corporal punishment, but rather a system by which Godly discipline is meted out.
    For example, He says that God disciplines His children by not intervening in the effects of sin on their lives, that is, they are no longer under His wrath because of Christ's work, but they are not exempt from His correction thru experiencing the pains of sin.
    He applied it in a practical sense by giving the illustration of his own son.
    He said in the third grade his son suddenly just developed the laziness to do his homework, get up early, and so on.
    So they just let him be.
    Naturally, he failed and didn't make it to the next grade.
    When he was told he was to repeat the third grade, he balked.
    But repeat he did.
    And never again failed.

    Growing up he said his son was normal, like any teener.
    He had the teeners' vocabulary, except for the cusses.
    One day they were having a fight about something, and his son blurted out "get out of my life" !

    Later that day, he asked if he could borrow the car.
    His reply was, "son, I'd love to lend the car to you. But right now, your mom and I are out of your life".

    He learned never to talk to his parents that way again.
     
  6. cowboymatt

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    The rod just taught me how to better get away with doing bad stuff as a kid.
     
  7. Bob Alkire

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    I don't think it is out of context, so I reread it in my Bible and it say the same as posted.
    Yes, God is love, but He will punish to train His people. Look at Israel as slaves in Egypt, look at David and his life and there are many more in the Scripture.
    I believe Dr. Tedd Tripp's Shepherding a Child's Heart, as you have described it , is about right because it seems to be by the Scriptures. All discipline should be done with much prayer and love. With that said, I never spared the rod, nor prayer, nor love for my children and by the time they were between 6 and 8 years old,( they aree now 43, 37 and 12 years old) I never needed the rod to correct them. God blessed me there.
     
    #7 Bob Alkire, Jan 29, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 29, 2008
  8. saturneptune

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    The three verses he quoted are isolated, and are given without any hint of love. Discipline is corrective, not punitive. Yes, at times our kids were paddled, but with the idea of correcting a situation, not for the purpose of turning them black and blue. They turned out fine.
     
  9. Bob Alkire

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    I don't think we are talking about what might be the picture in your mind, such as beating a child to death, but from reading the text I see much love if we put it all together, let me try and explain, teaching in the text he was using tell us much but as with any text we need to read and put what is being said from God's point of view. Beating with a rod is not the only form of discipline advocated in Proverbs. It is simply one form used here as a poetic parallel to discipline. Other forms of discipline reproof, temporary isolation, grounding, may be more appropriate in some situations with children of differing ages and temperaments. These verses assure the parent that the child will not only survive the discipline, but he or she will survive because of it. An idea here is that discipline helps the child to live a full life; if he dies (prematurely), it would be a consequence of not being trained. In Proverbs such a death might be moral and social as well as physical.
    Using Prov. 23:15-16; This part balances the previous one. The child’s choice is as vital as the parent’s discipline. The affectionate, “My son” adds a warm touch and removes any inference that the writer enjoyed whipping his child. This father’s greatest concern was that his son should learn wisdom. Parents receive joy when they observe their children making wise choices.
     
  10. swaimj

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    Webdog, I have read Tripp's book that you referenced. I have also seen his video series The Case for Kids. Both are excellent.

    A warning: Be careful what you reveal on this board about specific instances and methods of disciplining your children. There are people in this world who are militantly opposed to corporal punishment for children and they could cause you trouble.
     
  11. annsni

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    I like that definition - although I don't think it's a correct interpretation of the "rod" in the Scripture. I think it's a great definition of what God expects from parents, though.

    In my experience raising 4 kids, the phrase "undertaking the responsibility of careful, timely, measured and controlled" is so important. I IS my responsibility to discipline my children - sometimes for correction, sometimes for punishment. With 3 of my children, spankings were few and far between but when they were dealt, they were swift, sure and controlled. I can't remember with my oldest but since my 2 younger are still pretty young, I can safely say that I've spanked each one less than 10 times and it might even be less than 5. They are 5 and 7. The one who put me through the ringer and was spanked a LOT more than the others was my 2nd child - my strong willed child. Just the other day, after watching an episode of a good friend of hers who's also strong willed in dealing with her mother (it was not a pretty sight), my daughter came to me and said "Thank you so much for raising me the way you did. I didn't like the spankings but I certainly learned quickly that I needed to obey you and why (because we'd discuss the why a LOT with her - it wasn't just spankings). I can't imagine if you let me get away with half of the stuff I wanted to do!". This daughter is 15 and a wonderful young girl.

    Raising kids is tough and God DOES give us a lot of wisdom in His Word. We do need to be careful about how we discipline our kids because it's easy to go overboard in either direction (being too lenient and being too harsh) but with prayer - LOTS of prayer - and making sure that our heart is turned towards our children and their welfare, then I think that we will not overuse just one of the tools that we're given in raising our children.
     
  12. Dr. L.T. Ketchum

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    PARENTING A SOUL: Chastising Children Biblically

    The following is an excerpt from Chapter 44 of my book, PARENTING A SOUL
    http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/Pages/Parenting a Soul.htm

    Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him” (Proverbs 22:15).

    “Foolishness” is the spirit of disobedience and rebellion against the will of God. It comes from the Hebrew root word eviyl (ev-eel’). It refers to a person who mocks authority when found guilty or one who despises wisdom. The word “bound” is from the Hebrew word qashar (kaw-shar’). Its means “foolishness” and the “heart” are tied together or are in partnership with one another. The “heart” is a metaphor referring to the seat of emotions and the human fallen nature (the spirit of man). The “rod of correction” is a metaphor used to denote remedial discipline.

    There are many such verses in the Word of God. The word “rod” is from the Hebrew word shebet (shay’-bet). It most probably refers to a branch cut from a bush or a tree. The size of the rod used was determined by the age of the person, the severity of the offense and whether or not the chastisement was intended to be remedial (as in the case of a young child). The “rod” was considered a form of penal punishment for an adult or older child. Even penal punishment was intended to be corrective in nature.

    See Proverbs 10:13 and Proverbs 26:3.

    Verses regarding the “rod of correction” are often taken out of context and used to support parents’ rights to physically abuse their rebellious children. Properly administered corporal discipline will never be done in anger nor will it ever be abusive. If discipline is Biblical, it will always maintain the focus of its purpose to CORRECT and RESTORE. It is never intended to be punitive (although that is one of the outcomes). It is intended to correct behavior that is contrary to the Word of God and it is intended to restore the individual to fellowship with God through repentance, confession and receiving forgiveness.

    We need to be aware that the nation of Israel was a theonomic nation that gave parents the responsibility to punish offenses of the Law for minor children (this usually was under the age of 13). After a child reached adulthood, the size of the rod increased, and administration of correction was publicly done by an officer of the court.

    Biblical discipline is not punitive, but corrective in nature. Discipleship is teaching a person, including children, to yield his will to God’s will (God’s will is revealed in the Scriptures). Discipline is part of the discipleship process and should therefore include taking the person to the Word of God to reinforce the reality of God’s will in a matter of disobedience. Although a child may have been disobedient to a parent’s instruction or command, that failure in obedience was also disobedience to God in that God has ordained the authority of parents over their children. Disobedience to parents is disobedience to God (unless parents command a child to do something contrary to God’s Word).

    Biblical discipline is intended to produce self-discipline. Self-discipline is when a person learns to obey God’s Word because he loves the Lord and has learned to control his own carnal desires. Self-discipline defines spiritual maturity. The Bible word for spiritual maturity is the word “perfect.”

    See Philippians 3:12-15.

    The word “perfect” is translated from the Greek word teleios (tel’-i-os; or root thereof). It means something that is not wanting of anything necessary to completeness. It refers to a finished work; an adult of full maturity. This is the goal of parenting and discipleship. Although, as Paul says in Philippians 3:12, none of us ever reach the state of spiritual maturity where we always make the right choices, the spiritually mature person is always pressing towards that goal.

    There is a major difference between fear-motivated self-discipline and love-motivated self-discipline. Fear-motivated self-discipline is done out of fear of the chastisement that will come IF YOU GET CAUGHT. Fear-motivated self-discipline will almost always lead to a life of secret sin. Love-motivated self-discipline is done out of loyalty and devotion to the one loved. This is what defines faithfulness in a relationship. Fear is a juvenile form of self-discipline. Love is the spiritually mature form of self-discipline. In this latter, we obey God because we love Him rather than out of fear of His chastisement.

    When love-motivated self-discipline is evident, trust is the result. Trust is a gift given to a person. Some say that trust must be earned. That is true to some extent. It would probably be better to say trust is a gift given to a person who proves his/her worthiness of that trust by faithfulness. That person would be said to be TRUSTWORTHY. It is important to communicate to a child that one of the purposes of remedial discipline (chastisement) is to build trust for privileges of greater independence.

    When a child habitually fails to obey, this is rebellion. Rebellion is always self-destructive in that sin will always harm the individual involved in it. Obedience is always an issue of faith in God. Belief in God means we believe that the things He commands us to do and not to do are best for us and for others under our influence. Rebellion is an act AGAINST the authority more than merely an act of disobedience. Disobedience is merely a means of showing a parent that his/her authority has been rejected. Of course, it also reveals unbelief in God in that God has ordained authorities.

    Biblical discipline is an act of love and, therefore, must always be done in love. Anger is a natural response towards disloyalty, disrespect, disobedience and rudeness. However, anger is an emotion that must be controlled. Anger is the result of focusing on the harm a person’s disobedience or sin does to us. Anger wants to PUNISH (hurt) the person that has hurt us. On the other hand, love focuses on the harm a person does to himself and his relationships with others through sin (disobedience). Love is always willing to confront an offense for the benefit of the offender. A parent who refuses to discipline his child does not love his child.

    See Proverbs 13:24 and Hebrews 12:5-6.

    If you are angry, wait until you get your anger totally under control before administering remedial discipline. Prayer is a good means of bringing anger under control. Anger itself is not sin, but out-of-control anger is.

    See Ephesians 4:26-27.

    Out-of-control anger will “give place to the devil.” Out-of-control anger will open a door of opportunity for the devil to distort and pervert the purposes of remedial discipline. Out-of-control anger communicates hatred and rejection of the person being disciplined rather than hatred for the act that brought about the discipline (hate the sin and love the sinner). Out-of-control anger in discipline will generate resentment and bitterness towards the person doing the disciplining and will ultimately generate rebellion.

    Proverbs 22:15 says, “Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child.”
    Although rebellion is intrinsic to every fallen nature (Romans 3:23), rebellion can be inculcated in the life of a child through poor parenting. The primary purpose of remedial discipline is to teach a child to yield his will to authorities (beginning with God). Remedial discipline, done in out-of-control anger, FORCES a child to yield his will to the person giving the discipline. When this happens, a child yields to the POWER, not to what he/she acknowledges to be right. When the POWER is not there, the child will do “whatever is right in his own eyes.”

    Remedial discipline needs to be administered consistently in the early years of a child’s character development. The vast majority of the principles of self-discipline should be accomplished in a child’s life before he/she is five years old. If a process of remedial discipline is practiced consistently, moment by moment throughout the day in a child’s life, it will accomplish its goal; i.e. DISCIPLESHIP. The discipled child will learn the discipline of yielding his will to God’s will.
     
    #12 Dr. L.T. Ketchum, Jan 29, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 29, 2008
  13. Dr. L.T. Ketchum

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    Solutions Offered in Chapter 44

    A Suggested Process for Biblical Discipline

    1. Require a complete admission (confession) of the wrong that was done to all parties involved. If the offense was private, it should be kept between the disciplinarian and the child being disciplined. Make sure that the child being disciplined is aware that God is ALWAYS one of the offended parties.

    2. Require a commitment (promise) of repentance. Repentance is a commitment to all parties involved that the offense will not happen again.

    3. Genuine repentance should be accompanied by remorse. Real remorse will be evident in a person’s attitude towards those offended. That remorse should be communicated to the offended parties.

    4. Since God is always the primary offended party in any act of disobedience, prayer should be an intricate part of the disciplinary process. Prayer should communicate to God all the things communicated to the other offended parties.

    5. The remedial aspect of discipline can take whatever venue that is necessary to get the results sought for (correction of the character flaw that brought about the disobedience and restoration to trust and family privileges). Remedial discipline can be accomplished through Bible study, discussion, scolding, taking away privileges such as grounding or, if none of these other actions get the desired results, spanking. God has provided an excellent part of the human anatomy for this purpose. A child should never be slapped in the face, punched, shaken or verbally abused such as being called stupid, retarded or any other language intended to demean his worth or importance.

    6. After the conclusion of remedial discipline, the child should be reassured that he/she is loved with outward communication in both words and gestures such as hugs or holding/embraces. The child should be reassured of his/her value as a person and full acceptance should be communicated in real and practical ways.

    7. The final step in the process of disciplining a child is to give the gift of forgiveness, fully restoring the child to fellowship with the incident put in the past to never be spoken of again. In giving this kind of forgiveness, you discipline the child to give forgiveness to others that will wrong him/her. Without forgiveness, a child will become bitter and resent the discipline and the person administering it, generating further rebellion.
     
  14. Joe

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    Thank you Dr. Ketchum

    Excellent :thumbs:
     
  15. annsni

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    Right on Dr. Ketchum! It's important to know the WHOLE story of discipline rather than just the "spank" aspect of it. That's just a fraction of the entire process of discipline and at times doesn't even come into play! But the goal of all of it is for the child to learn self-discipline not just in action but from their heart and mind. It's hard but God gives us the wisdom to be able to do it properly.
     
  16. webdog

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    I'm still on the fence regarding corporal punishment. I was raised this way, but as of late have begun to rethink what the "rod" really is from a biblical perspective. I find it kind of odd that only a handful of verses from a book that is poetic in nature (Proverbs) is taken quite literally, and a whole system of rearing a child is based on these 5 or so verses.

    I'm glad I'm doing this study now while my kids are still very young. Psalm 23 states the rod is one of comfort, so I am seeing it more as a sign of authority, and not a literal rod used to beat. Even if it is, Proverbs occured during the OT, and many things were no longer required once the NT came about, one being the requirement of death for adultery and the like. Also, the "rod of correction" implies it is not an acual rod, but a metaphor used symbolically, as there were not rods used for different punishments. My father used to use a belt, so technically he was not obedient since he didn't use the "rod". If it to be taken quite literal, anything used to discipline other than a rod is not biblical.
     
    #16 webdog, Jan 29, 2008
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  17. pinoybaptist

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    I'm with you on this, webdog. I think you're on the right track. I myself am 61 years old now (boy, I stared on the digits on my laptop for about a minute before I actually got myself to type in those numbers...ah, well) and if I could live life all over again, I think I will limit the number of times I used the literal rod on my children to the minimum, to the most necessary times only, and just allow my children to learn from their mistakes and failures with me just standing by in case they're about to "fall off the cliff" so to speak.

    May God grant you wisdom, brother.
     
  18. Sopranette

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    I can't even imagine using a belt on a child. Can you see yourself as being only two and a half feet tall, and an angry six foot man is coming at you with a belt? I don't know of anyone who uses an actual rod, either, or even a paddle, but I know of many parents who do spank. Also, it's not fair that the father is the only one doing the discipline. If he is, the mother needs to support him on this, and not try to play the "good" guy.

    love,

    Sopranette
     
  19. annsni

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    It was rare that my husband would spank the kids because I was around them more. But he did at times and fully supported each time I spanked them. I used my hand when they were little (and with carpal tunnel syndrome, trust me, it really DID hurt me more than it did them) and then a wooden spoon on their clothed bottom when they got bigger. I'd never use a belt, though - that just seems too harsh.
     
  20. skypair

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    Yes -- but are you to be congatulated on a new blessing??? He/she is precious!!

    BTW, my dad had a paddle. I didn't turn out too bad. My brother, on the other hand, once hid it! He didn't turn out so good -- "black sheep" of 6 kids and yet today, same thing!

    skypair
     
    #20 skypair, Jan 29, 2008
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