The rules for angels, demons and satan

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by npetreley, Jun 23, 2004.

  1. npetreley

    npetreley
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    I asked these same questions in another thread, but I think they deserve their own thread...

    I know this is purely speculative, but I think the opinions offered as answers might actually lead to an interesting perspective on Calvinism vs. Arminianism.

    1. Is it possible that even one demon or even satan desires to repent and be reinstated as an angel?

    2. If not, then why not? What happened to them that they are now unwilling or unable to desire to be restored to their former status?

    3. If it is possible that even one demon/satan wants to repent and be restored, then what prevents them from repenting and being reinstated? Does God simply refuse to accept their apology and reinstate them?

    I'm not asking if God has made any propitiation or given any other provision for demons or angels to be "saved" and reinstated as angels.

    I'm specifically asking if you think it is possible that there might be even ONE demon who is sorry it rebelled, and would like to be restored to its original condition -- but cannot be restored because....(your answer goes here). And if you think it is not possible that there's even a single demon who is sorry it rebelled, why not? What is it about them that they are unable to regret their decision and want to reverse it?
     
  2. npetreley

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    Here are some follow-up questions that might take us to the points even faster.

    Assume for a moment that satan, the beast, the false prophet and all whose names were not written in the book of life are now in the lake of fire, where they will be tormented forever.

    Question: At this point, will anyone who was NOT cast into the lake of fire (whose name was in the book of life) ever be ABLE to sin? If so, what will happen to them? If not, why not? What changed?

    The Bible doesn't seem to say that ALL demons are cast into the lake of fire, but let's assume that they are.

    Question: Will an angel ever be able to rebel after all this is done? If so, will they then be tossed into the lake of fire? If not, why won't they be ABLE to rebel? What changed?
     
  3. just-want-peace

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    One answer(?) to all 3 questions!
    Philip Yancey tells of a situation in his book, What's so Amazing About Grace of a man who asked him (Yancey)if God could forgive him if he left his wife & family for another woman!
    Yancey said that he stewed over this question for quite some time (3 cups of coffee) before answering.
    Answer was that God could forgive, but "will you still desire forgiveness then?"
    At the time of the writing, the man had left for the younger woman "who makes me feel so young" and he had deserted all his old "stuffy" friends, and has no desire to return to God "for now"!

    Perhaps this is the situation with the demons/satan; IE they have no desire to "return to God".
    CAN they return? I have my doubts, but off hand I know of no scripture that specifies this fact. Would like to know if there is, or if I've just missed it.

    In my opinion, that would be HELL, to know what you've given up, and yet have no desire to get it back!!
     
  4. MTA

    MTA
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    It is equally intriguing to entertain how any of the fallen angels could have conceivably rebelled against God in the first place. After all, they were in His presence already. If they could, being in His presence, willingly rebel and ultimately fall from that blessed state of communion with Him, how then is it that any would desire to repent? I am sure they dread the day approaching, for truly they know of it:

    Mat 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
    Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?


    But you will notice that they do not ask to be forgiven. I am persuaded that their characters have been so changed by their transgression from what they were originally created to be, that their future destruction is understood and accepted as a "given" and any thought of repentance, even if it were possible, is not even remotely a consideration.
     
  5. Doubting Thomas

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    These are intriguing questions and would be difficult to answer with any certaintly for at least two related reasons:
    (1) Angelic (and demonic) beings in all likelihood experience time and space differently than we do. Perhaps choices they make have far more mysterious and profound consequences than we can comprehend.
    (2) We only get rare glimpses of what goes on "behind the scenes", so to speak, in Scripture.

    That's a good point.
     
  6. npetreley

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    I noticed nobody touched what I think is one of the more important questions -- after all of what the Bible says about the future is said and done -- after we are given our glofified bodies and take up residence in our new home with God -- will we be ABLE to sin?

    In addition, of all the remaining angels who had not fallen, will any of THEM be ABLE to rebel?

    In short, will there EVER be a final end to sin, once and for all? Will there EVER come a time when beings (angels or whatever we become) are totally free from anything that leads to sin -- whether you want to call it a sinful nature or the temptation to rebel, or whatever?
     
  7. dttw_aic

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    First of all, I cannot claim to know the answer. Just as it was stated earlier, we are not given much information on this subject. I believe that this is because the focus of the Bible is on the human condition and not that of the angels.

    This being said, it is my view that we will be able to, but won't. We are faced with every temptation possible here on earth. If we can endure to the end here, then shurly we will endure after this phase of our lives.

    I think the same goes for the angels as well. They were tempted with power, some fell into it while others did not. Those who were able to endure through this great temptation will shurly endure through others.

    As for your final question I will say yes with a but. After the final judgement I believe there will be no more sin, but there will always be the possability for sin.

    I will not say these things as to be facts. If there is any scripture that shows otherwise, I am open to the idea. This will have to be yet another thing to add to my ever growing list of things to ask the father when I go to see him in person.
     
  8. just-want-peace

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    dttw_aic sez:
    I agree with the first part, but question the 2nd - the possibility of sin in Heaven. I say this because I don't believe that after we are in our glorified bodies we'll be capable of sin.

    For instance, we now have the sin nature because of the yielding of Adam, and consequently we are under satan's power by default, until we make the conscious choice to change masters. After accepting Christ's payment for our sins we have told satan to "get lost" and we are HIS forevermore. Once we shed these mortal bodies, there is absolutely no longer ANY connection with our former master, hence no capability/desire to follow his lead and sin.

    Theory! If Adam had rejected satan's wiles, would God have then established "Heaven on earth" as seemed to be th original intent, or would man have been subject to sinning for the past 6,000+/-years? (Maybe you or I would have been the one to condemn the human race?!)

    I've never thought of this point before, so I have no idea if that would have been the last temptation or not, but somehow I can't believe that God would have let us live under this potential damnation had Adam behaved himself way back then; nor can I believe that God would allow this possibility once we are into eternity.

    I DO agree with your assessment that we will not have the desire to sin though.

    DITTO!!!!!!
     
  9. npetreley

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    Are you saying you never sin now?

    If there's the possibility, but there won't be sin, then what do you think would have changed? In short, the possiblility exists now, and we do sin. If the possibility will exist then, but we won't sin, what will have happened to make the difference?
     
  10. npetreley

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    I happen to agree with you. If I had to guess WHY we will be theoretically incapable of sin, it will be because in our transformed state, we will no longer have any desire to sin - none whatsoever. God will graciously remove 100% of our sinful nature. We will still have "free will" in the same sense we had "free will" as sinners -- we will act according to our built-in inclination, which THEN will be to love God with all our hearts -- just as, when we were sinners, we obeyed our built-in inclination, which was to sin and reject God.

    But this leads to what I think are some obvious questions, and your theory intersects with one of them perfectly.

    Question! If God knows the end from the beginning, why did He allow satan into the garden in the first place? What was the purpose of introducing (or allowing) sin into the world? Surely God wasn't caught by surprise at what happened.

    Question! If God is capable of transforming us into beings who freely love Him and are incapable of sin, then why didn't He just CREATE us that way from the start? What was the point of creating a fallible couple named Adam and Eve, and then KNOWINGLY allow satan to lure them into the fall, which He knew would result in thousands of years of sin and rebellion?
     
  11. MTA

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    God created us as sentient, rational beings. We are capable of willfull thought and decision-making. Although we share many characteristics of God's other creations that inhabit this world, we are much more than any of them.

    We have in our capacity the ability to seek, to follow, and to love God simply because we choose to. It is not because we should, or because we have no choice, or because we are incapable of understanding our Creator, but simply because we choose to. By having this ability and exercising it to follow and obey God, we give Him all honor and praise from our existence.

    If Adam and Eve had obeyed God, you and I might not even be here. But they did not obey and still God loved them. In fact He loved them enough that He had already prepared the remedy for their sin and a means of reconciliation through Jesus Christ.

    1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
    1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
    1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
     
  12. npetreley

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    MTA, that was a nice speech, but it doesn't answer any of the questions in this thread.
     
  13. MTA

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    npetreley:

    Sorry for my feeble attempt to partially answer your last questions. I'm sure others can do better.
     
  14. massdak

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    it seems that those who offend the Lord by sinning has made a most serious act. it seems that those who do this are now liable to pay the Lord for this type of disobedience, God seems to have no remedy available for fallen angels and has opted to give them Godly justice. it also seems that even if fallen angels wanted forgiveness it is not available.
     
  15. npetreley

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    Is this consistent with the Arminian view of God, that a loving God would deny the means to restoration to His fallen angels who have the will and desire to repent?
     
  16. massdak

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    it is written that>>>Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
     
  17. npetreley

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    massdak -- that's right. I was hoping someone would make the connection between this discussion and a different part of Romans, but nobody's been willing to speculate on why God would allow satan into the garden, knowing full well in advance what the consequences would be. Granted, my personal connection with Romans is speculation, too... but at least it offers what I think is a possible answer.
     
  18. massdak

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    also man trys to reconcile all mystery of the Lord and to try to figure the Lord out and to try to understand His justice and how a person can on their own obtain mercy as if it can be earned. the apostle paul says this>>>>Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
     
  19. Roy1

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    In eternity to come there shall be nothing that defiles, that can enter the New Jerusalem anfd I belive that that extends to all of the new creation.

    Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

    Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. [​IMG]

    There is also a I believe a fixing of the character of those in eternity,
    Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

    There is an end to sin.

    Let us wait and see the finer details of how that works out when we get there. But I would have no problem with a categorical YES to the end of sin.

    Roy.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  20. npetreley

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    Neither do I.

    But that raises the same questions I've posed above.

    It is obvious that if we -- who struggle with sin even when we're saved -- suddenly are transformed into beings that are no longer capable (or no longer willing - I don't care how you want to account for the change) to sin, then it must be God who performs this transformation - right? We certainly can't do it ourselves. I don't know about you folks, but if I could rid myself of my sinful nature, I'd do it in a heartbeat, so if it's going to happen, it's only going to happen if God does it.

    So if God CAN and WILL transform us this way, why didn't God just create us that way to begin with?

    Why create Adam and Eve with the ability to rebel, deliberately allow them to be deceived by satan, and allow the subsequent fall of all mankind? And THEN, after God has allowed man to become sinful, God gives us laws that He knows full well we cannot possibly obey of our own power -- and then punishes us on a continual basis for disobeying them. (Just read the OT for a history of this.) Sure, we know that God eventually provides the solution (faith in Jesus), but if God could have created us the way we will be -- without sin or the desire to sin -- when we are transformed, then what was the purpose of all of the above struggle?

    C'mon folks! On the surface, it may sound like a profound and unanswerable question, but it isn't THAT difficult to find scriptural support for a theory, at least.
     

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