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The rules for angels, demons and satan

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by npetreley, Jun 23, 2004.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    It is not possible for them to repent - they are totally depraved and God is not drawing them to repentance. They have committed the unpardonable sin.

    If they "could" repent and God would not hear it - then we would have a question about God's pronouncement over them that they are beyond rescue.

    However - they can not repent - they have committed the unpardonable sin - they sinned in the full light of day - there is no "new light" to cause them to repent.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    God's intelligent creation will ALWAYS be ABLE to sin. God chose FREE WILL and so allowed Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels to make bad choices - and He lost them.

    God CHOSE free will and Adam and Eve sinned - and He lost all of humanity.

    God CHOSE free will and the CHOSEN people rejected the Messiah - and He lost them.

    God STILL chooses free will and THE MANY of Matt 7 are going to hell.

    AND in the end - God will CONTINUE to choose free will - but all the issues will be settled.

    In all of the accounts of perfect beings falling - it is because they were confused or in the dark about the full character of God - but this 6000 year experiment in sin - removes that problem from the universe.

    Same as above. Peter says that Angels LONG to look into this salvation history - and learn from it. It is the light of truth that is the great shield against any being ever being so confused that they would choose sin rather than simply asking God and trusting His answer.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    God has created and designed a free will system in the universe. That is the one He sovereignly chose. The motivation of free will intelligent beings is "compelling evidence" rather than "pithed brains". God is working toward a sin free - eternally secure universe of intelligent created beings. This 6,000 years of sin and suffering is the 'data' that ensures an eternity of sinless existence in a free will universe.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    by Bob Ryan:

    Seems to me like this god you're describing is a loser, man.
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Funny - but even Calvinists can not deny the obvious fact that Lucifer was not "So depraved he had to sin".

    Even Calvinists can not deny that "the unfallen angels were not so depraved that 1/3 had to sin".

    Even Calvinist can not deny that "Adam was not created so depraved that he had to sin".

    And as far as the Calvinist principle of arbitrary selection in Matt 7 goes - well that speaks for itself.

    The beauty of God's sovereign choice for free will in His universe - is that He ALSO gets a sinless eternity by the means described in my post - motivivating by compelling argument rather than pithing the brains of all He makes.

    The only loss here in the big picture - is Calvinism.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Can you quote some Calvinists here? I have only read one Calvinist's opinion in this matter (R.C. Sproul), and his opinion was that God was ultimately responsible for satan's fall.

    In this case, I've never heard nor read any Calvinists opine on this matter. Can you provide some quotes?

    The Calvinists I've read vary in their opinion on why Adam sinned, but I know of no Calvinists who assert that Adam sinned because he was "totally depraved".

    Obviously not, because I have no idea what you're talking about.

    So what you're saying is that God brings an end to sin via a compelling argument? Chapter and verse, please?
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Can you provide a quote from Calvin saying that "Luciver was created so depraved he COULD not choose right - he had to fall due to depravity. Lucifer was never given a choice".

    I have not read that from him. Though I have heard the opposite from John MacArthur and others.

    As I said - John MacArthur is the primary source I heard explaining that he did NOT think the sinless unfallen angels were "created so depraved that they HAD to fall".

    If you have anything to the contrary - please provide it.

    And yet that is exactly why we sin.

    (I think we are getting somewhere)

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I think you call it unconditional election --

    Rom 3:1-4, Rev 19:1-2, 1 Cor 4:9; Eph 3:8-10
     
  9. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Can you please stay on topic? Re-read what I said. I was talking about R.C. Sproul, not Calvin, and I did not say that Sproul claimed lucifer was totally depraved.

    I did not say I had anything to the contrary. What I said was that Sproul suggests that God is ultimately responsible for the fall of satan, and also ultimately responsible for the fall of man through Adam. I just moved a couple months ago, and all my books are in boxes. When I find that book, I'll gladly provide a quote for you.

    When talking about total depravity, the issue is not why we sin, but why we are not inclined to respond favorably to God. We have "free will" in the sense that we are free to do whatever we want to do. The problem is that, because we are totally depraved, we would never choose of our own free will to repent, believe and be saved.

    Perhaps you can expound on these texts to make your point, because I see absolutely nothing in them that would communicate the message that God brings an end to sin through a compelling argument.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Then the point remains. Lucifer was not forced (by being created depraved) to choose to sin.

    Rather he exercised "Free will".

    It can't be any other way. (Though "some" will argue that if God has foreknowledge then Lucifer had to sin and had "no choice". IF that was true -- then Christ "had no choice" either. - So obviously their paradigm falls apart.)

    Only in the sense that he set up an environment that included beings with free will - that did not have "absolute knowledge" so they could "miscalculate" they could "choose error".

    Had God chosen a system where "Faith" was never needed and all knowledge was fully possessed by all beings - they could never choose error any more than a person would "choose" to poke themselves in the eye with a stick.

    Sproul sometimes doubles back on that fact to make statements like "God is responsible for sin". But he goes to far in saying that. It is the human mind failing to fully comprehend the mind of God that leads him down that road.

    Better to just accept the fact that God is ABLE to creating beings with free will - and God "sovereignly chose" to do so.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene New Member

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    Folks, there is a very simple answer.

    It is not a satisfactory answer. It is hard to say. But here it is.

    WE JUST DON'T KNOW THE ANSWERS
     
  12. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I think Satan and the fallen angels are in a state of continuous rebellion to God and do not have the shred of a desire to be saved. They are in constant opposition to God. Jesus said that Satan's very nature is deception -- I think it's reasonable to assume that the angels who chose to follow Satan would have the same nature. Everything about Satan in the Bible only shows him being constantly against God and constantly against Christ; there is no reason to believe there is any desire there on his part or on the part of the angels who serve him to repent.


    I think God created Adam and Eve with the ability to choose to sin because they were created in the image of God. They were not robots. The ability to make moral choice is one of the things that separates humans from animals (and robots). Why did God create them this way? I think that's a matter of speculation. But can we conceive of humans who have no choices? I think not. Then we are talking about animals or robots.

    Also, ultimately God will be glorified by this because even though man chose to rebel and sin, God's great plan of salvation redeems men without forcing them yet it is a power of God, not man. It's a great paradox to me, but one which is only paradoxical because we cannot wrap our human minds around it. To try to choose a side -- Calvinist or Arminian -- totally destroys the beauty of this paradox.

    I think when we are with Christ after death we have no desire to sin, because we are redeemed completely at that point. That is not the same as being created that way -- to be created that way would be to have no moral choices (and in my mind, not be human). But to be redeemed from the very sin created by man's moral choices and yet at the end to have no desire to sin is due to God's redeemption through Christ and glorifies him. If that makes any sense . . . [​IMG] I don't know, I'm writing all this at 2:20 a.m. and it's clear to me, but then, I'm a night owl. [​IMG]
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Adam and Eve were created like Lucifer and all the angels "Without any desire to sin". They were perfect - and in perfect harmony and unity with their Creator.

    When our sinful nature is removed - at the return of Christ - we will have no sinful nature drawing us to sin. We will have the perfect sinless nature of Adam once again.

    But the "reason" we wont choose sin - is because of this 6000 years of sin and suffering. The compelling case will have been made and the intelligent mind will have "a lot of data" to deal with in placing faith in God no matter what.

    In a free will universe God motivates by compelling argument - not by pithing the brains of a crop of frogs so they all smile on queue.

    As we see in Job 1 and 2 - it is experiment and compelling argument - emperical evidence that motivates decision and conclusion.

    The same is shown in the heavenly courtoom of Daniel 7. "The books were opened... the court sat..." judgment based on evidence. Conclusions based on fact, data, evidence.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    If what you say is true, and we're now in the 5,900+ year of the trial, I'd say the world needs better representation.
     
  15. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    That doesn't explain why angels wouldn't be able (or wouldn't desire) to sin. As far as we know, they're still the same as they were when they were created. None of them have been "redeemed" as far as we know. Yet I find it difficult to believe there will be rebellious angels after a point.
     
  16. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I don't think we know about the angels and we can't compare them to humans; it's like apples and oranges, or maybe even apples and planets. The differences are vast.

    Angels are in the presence of God and God chooses not to redeem those that went with Satan, and those that remain serving Him, for reasons we do not know and which God chooses not to reveal, continue not to rebel. Man is born with a fallen nature and so he sins.

    God has chosen not to tell us about the angels so we just don't know. That's fine with me; we don't need to know all about them. My guess is that God knows we would become even more fascinated with angels if we knew more about their nature. As it is, man is already too fascinated with angels. Books, teachings and workshops on angels (mostly unbibical) abound. Angels, both good and bad, are a good distraction from Jesus.
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    As already stated -- these are things into which angels long to look. for this reason in Rev 19 when the 6000 of the sin "experiment" ends - the Angels start out with the statement "God was right"!

    The sin experiment that Adam chose to jump into - of his own Free Will - provides the compelling "evidence" needed by an intelligent Free Will universe to guard against sin and rebellion for all time.

    It is not a question of "can't sin" it is a fact of "won't sin" because the "evidence is in".

    As for the active participation of that intelligent Free Will universe in the Gospel and the affairs of men - notice in Danile 5 the decision of the "Holy Watchers". Notice in Daniel 7 the "myriads and myriads" in that courtroom of heaven where the books are opened and the court sits - and sufficient time elapses until judgment is "passed in favor of the saints".

    And prior to that sufficient amount of time - the saints on earth endure persecution according to Daniel 7.

    It is all there - in the Bible.

    Notice again in Job 1 and 2. It is again a non-earth courtroom our council and the debate is over Job. Satan comes representing earth and challenges the statement of God. God then proposes a test - a trial for the group to consider. In that testing time - the saints are in trouble as we see in the case of Job.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    We are sure of the final destination of this fallen angel called the Devil. [Revelation 20:10] Not only the Devil but the antichrist and the false prophet who will in the future preach the religion of the antichrist, this one who mimmics the real Jesus Christ. There is no redemption for fallen angels.

    The Devil has been on this planet since before Adam and Eve.

    In II Thess. 2:4 the antichrist will sit on the throne of the Great Tribulation Temple of the future, claiming that he is Jesus Christ of God.

    Berrian, Th.D.
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Ok - before Adam and Eve - but only about 5 days before at most. :D

    Or did you mean that the "sin" problem was in the universe before Adam and we actually don't know how long before Adam Luciver fell?

    Certainly that is a good point. In Lucifer's fall we see free will - and judgment and justice (and mercy in not destroying the angels immediately) -- and God setting up a "system" where those "cast out" can have access at the tree of knowledge of good and evil - the unfallen world(s).

    But in the 6000 year sin experiment on earth we see waht the "Gospel" reveals about God in addition to what was learned in the fall of the Angels prior to that.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Bob,

    Good post.

    The Bible says, 'When evil was found in him {the good angel who fell} then the Lord cast him out of Heaven. As you said, notice that God did not make the angel that surrounded Christ's thone, to fall from grace, if you will; he did it of his own free will and accord.

    Ray
     
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