The Sabbath Law

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Jul 6, 2013.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    here are two questions for my Seventh Day "of the week" Sabbath observers.

    QUESTION: Is God's application of Sabbath law in Leviticus 23 to fixed dates irregardless of what day of the week they fell upon consistent with the Creation Sabbath Law and fourth commandment. if not, why not? If so, how so?

    QUESTION: Is God's application of Sabbath law in Leviticus 25 to longer periods of time than 24 hours consistent with the Creation Sabbath Law and fourth Commandment? If not, why not? If so, how so?

    My position on the Creation Sabbath Law and the Fourth Commandment demands both are perfectly consistent and in keeping with such applications and usages found in Levitucus 23, 25 but does YOUR interpretation of the Creation Sabbath Law allow for that kind of variance and application???
     
  2. The Biblicist

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    For those who have not read my explanation of the Creation Sabbath law upon which the fourth commandment is based, is that it provides only a pattern of seven days, six working days precede and follow the seventh day Sabbath. This pattern of seven days is never once found in the fourth commandment qualfiied by the words "of the week." Hence, this pattern can be applied at any point in time within any calander irregardless of what day of the week it may begin and end on.

    Furthermore the "day" or hebrew "yom" is used two different ways in direct connection with the creation seven days. It is used for twenty-four hour periods (Gen. 2:3) and it is used for periods of time longer than twenty-four hour periods (Gen. 2:4) and both are in direct connection with creation and the Sabbath law.

    Therefore, God can arbitrarily apply the Sabbath law to seven twenty four hour periods or seven periods of time greater than twenty-four hours (months, year, years. perhaps millenimums - 2 Pet. 3:8) without any violation of the law.

    Therefore, God can arbitrarily apply the Sabbath law to any fixed date(s) in a month even though those dates may fall on varies days of the week without any violation of the law.

    Thereofre, God can arbitrarily apply the Sabbath law to any fixed day of the week as in the "first day of the week" without any violation of the law.

    The Jewish ceremonial Sabbath laws have been abolished entirely (Col. 2:14-16). Jesus violated the TRADITIONAL interpretations of the Sabbath law.

    The creation sabbath law remains today without all the Old Covenant encumberances but is a day of rejoicing and gladness fixed on the "first day of the week" as the "Lord's day" that commemorates the greater work of finished redemption at the resurrection and the better sinless creation yet to come.
     
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    You build your 'argument' on the - according to yourself - non-existent; so, how can you reach 'consistent' conclusion from something that does not exist?

    You cannot; like you prove yourself, here, contradicting yourself, <<... what day of the week [positively presupposed for REAL] it - this pattern of seven days - may begin and end on>> while "the week" <<is never once found qualfiied ... "of the week.">>
     
  4. The Biblicist

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    My argument is built upon the scriptural fact that the Sabbath law is applied to fixed dates in the Jewish Calander in Lev. 23 which do not fall on the seventh day "of the week" but fall upon various days of the week.

    How does your interpretation of the Sabbath Law harmonize with this application of sabbath Law?

    My argument is built upon the scrptural fact that neither the record of the Creation Sabbath law or any record of the fouth commandment contain the words "of the week." My position is that containing such words "of the week" would make the application of Sabbath Law to fixed dates in Leviticus 23 inconsistent with that law thus worded.

    My argument is that we find only seven days in Genesus 1-2 without any LIMITATION to a certain day "of the week." Thus a PATTERN OF SEVEN days, where six work days precede and follow the seventh day Sabbath. Therefore it can be implemented at any point in any calendar regardless of the date of the month (as in Lev. 23) or day "of the week" or length of the"yom" (as in Lev. 24).
     
  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    You will not find "the week" <<qualfiied ... "of the week">> in the Old or in the New Testament. Because the Old is written in Hebrew, and the New is written in Greek—and none is written in English.

    Therefore you will not find "the week" <<qualfiied ... "of the week">> before incidence of it being <<qualfiied ... "of the week">> in CHRISTIAN – MOSTLY ENGLISH – literature.

    Before our Christian (English) literature, you will find "the week" nowhere else <<qualfiied ... "of the week">> than in equivalent Greek New Testament Idiom, ‘sabbatohn’ / ‘sabbatou’, ‘of the week’ --- ‘of the week’—from ‘sabbatohn’ / ‘sabbatou’—with CHRISTIAN meaning—not literal or Old Testament meaning. In the Old Testament ‘sabbaton’ means “the day The Seventh Day SABBATH OF THE LORD GOD” and nothing else. In the New Testament “the week”, ‘sabbatohn’ or ‘sabbatou’, has meaning at all because of the inseparability and close nexus between “the day The Seventh Day SABBATH OF THE LORD GOD” and the ‘modern’ reality and practicality of ‘the week’.

    You will NOT find an exact equivalent—not even in the Hebrew of the Old Testament—for ‘sabbatohn’ / ‘sabbatou’, ‘of the week’. It was the Greek of the New Testament that supplied the terminology which later – especially since the Reformation – has become the universal identification of [in English] ‘the week’.

    The concept found in the Old Testament and Hebrew of the annual ‘weeks-(of sabbaths)’/“sevens-(of-days)”, ‘sha-voo’ag’, or, ‘shiv-gah’, ‘seven’ [e.g., “shut the house seven days”; “count seven sabbaths”, literally, “count seven sevens (of days)”] does NOT come from NOR depends on the word “sabbath”, ‘sabbaton’.
    No; the word(s) for ‘seven’ in Hebrew, are related to the Hebrew word for ‘oath’. They mean to ‘make a point’; to ‘form a closed’ or ‘sworn / fixed, entity’.
    As far as the annual or seasonal ‘sabbaths’ are concerned, they are determined by nature’s seasonal forces. They don’t begin with things spiritual or recur according to the laws of Faith.
    Translations found in the Old Testament that are made with the word ‘week’ or with the words ‘- of the week’, are found for WANT of a proper Old Testament equivalent, and are totally dependent on the NEW Testament and Christian, (mostly) English, Idiom of, ‘(-Day) of the week’.

    The New Testament Idiom, ‘sabbatohn’ / ‘sabbatou’ for ‘the week’, has no relation with the Old Testament seasonal ‘weeks-of-days’ / ‘sevens of sevens’ of days. It SOLELY depends on the recurrence of “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD”. Inexplicable, irrational, illogical—it DEFIES nature, language, culture—whatever human or humanistic; it depends on “the SABBATH OF THE LORD GOD”.

    And that explains the only reason why its acceptance has become so universally indispensible and practical.

    It mocks all ‘Sunday observance’ rational.

    ‘The week’, in other words, has NO EXPLANATION OR ORIGIN whatsoever than the recurrence of “The Sabbath” Jesus Christ “the Son of Man is Lord of”, namely, “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD”.
     
    #5 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 7, 2013
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  6. The Biblicist

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    You are making my point. The idea of the "seventh day OF THE Week" has no Biblical basis whatsoever in regard to the Sabbath law.

    The phrase "first day of the week" is not merely "sabbatou" but either "mia sabbaton" or "proto sabbatou. So the words "sabbaton" or "sabbatou" do not convey "of the week" either!

    Neither does the Sabbath Law support this idea. The Sabbath law is not founded upon human calendars or calculations by men kept from Genesis 2. If that were the case then God could not possibly apply the Sabbath law to FIXED dates which fall on various days of the week in the Jewish calendar as in Levitucs 23. God is not establishing an infallible calendar that keeps track of every seventh day since Genesis 2. He is providing a principle that can be applied at any time to any day or date in any human calendar. This is clearly established by the fact that the DATES in Leviticus 23 are completely arbitrary selections for Sabbath law application. Likewise, after the cross God can and did arbitrarily established the resurrection DAY as the seventh day Sabbath in a pattern of seven days. This fact is established by time zones where Saturday is being observed on one side of a time zone line while Friday or Sunday is being observed on the other side of the time zone lines.


    The establishment of the calendar week according to the PATTERN of seven creative days is a BY PRODUCT but not the law of the Sabbath.
     
  7. The Biblicist

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    In Summary, the Sabbath law is based upon a seven day pattern where the seventh day sabbath is preceded and followed by six working days independent of, indeed, preceding any human caldendars. Indeed, human calendars do not follow a 28 day month as neither the solar or lunar year is evenly divided by Seven.

    The calendar seven day week is merely a by product of this law but is not contained in this law anywhere in scripture. This law is independent of any human calandar and the absolute proof of this is the fact that God applies this Sabbath law to FIXED DATES in the Jewish calendar which do not fall on the seventh day "of the week" but fall upon various days of the week.

    The SDA and other Saturdarians interpretation and application of the Sabbath Law cannot be harmoized with this fact. Indeed, their interpretation and restriction to the seventh day "of the week" is a repudiation and condemnation of God's own use and application of the Sabbath Law in Leviticus 23 and 25.

    Neither can the SDA and Saturdarian interpretation and application of the Sabbath law be harmonized with its application by God to periods of time greater than 24 hour Sabbaths (seventh MONTH, YEAR, 50th year, etc.) However, the Creation Sabbath is directly identified with the 24 hour "yom" (Gen. 2:3) as well as the greater than 24 hour period "yom" (Gen. 2:4).

    Just as God can arbritrarily select FIXED DATES to apply the Sabbath Law, He can select a FIXED DAY to be the Seventh day Sabbath preceded and followed by Six working days as in the resurrection day of the Lord (Psa. 118:24; Acts 4:10-11; Mk. 16:9; Heb. 4:9; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Rev. 1:7).

    Everyone of the ten commandments were fulfilled by Christ and yet all of them continue in their original function to provide the knowledge of sin (James 2:10-11).

    The Creation Sabbath REST is entered by faith in the gospel (Heb. 4:2-4) before and after Calvary (Acts 10:43) IN SPIRIT only. Yet those who entered the creation rest by faith prior to Calvary still observed a literal Sabbath day simply because the Creation Sabbath rest demands more than SPIRITUAL rest in Christ by faith but TOTAL rest in Christ in spirit, soul and body which only occurs in the new heaven and earth yet to come (Rev. 21:1-2). Therefore, Joshua leading the people into the physical rest of palestine did not fulfill it. Neither was it fulfilled by David providing rest from all the enemies of the Lord. The Creation REST when God can once again look upon all that he has created and say "very good" will not be fulfilled until God creates a new heaven and new earth and we entered it in glorified bodies, so there still remains a rest to be entered (Heb. 4:11) and therefore there is still a Sabbath day observance for the people of God (heb. 4:9) but a BETTER Sabbath day based upon the finished redemptive work of Jesus Christ (Heb. 4:10). It is not a LEGALISTIC Sabbath observance as under the Mosaic Law but a day of rejocing and gladness under Christ (Psa. 118:24) that celebrates His victory over death, hell and the grave and points forward to the Hope of our own ultimate victory over death, hell and the grave and a new sinless creation rest yet to come.
     
    #7 The Biblicist, Jul 8, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 8, 2013
  8. Gup20

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    The whole topic is irrelevant for those who are saved by grace through faith.
     
  9. The Biblicist

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    The law was never designed to justify anyone it was designed to reveal the knowledge of sin. It still serves the same purpose as the same God is the author of both law and grace. Saving faith does not invalidate Gods law (Rom. 3:31).

    We are no longer under the Mosaic ADMINSTRATION of God's laws but we are not free to turn the grace of God into lasciviousness either (Rom. 6:1).
     
  10. convicted1

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

    Do you see us, the saved, under the moral law?
     
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    No; you don’t get the New Testament Scriptures’ point! Which is NOT <<the idea of the "SEVENTH day of the Week">>, but those <seven days> as determined by the “SABBATH”—the “Sabbath DAY”.
    The idea with the use of the word “Sabbatohn” / “Sabbatou” is to indicate and identify and name the <seven days> of the “SABBATH’S-WEEK”—no other <pattern of seven days>.
    The idea in “Sabbatohn” / “Week”, is the central <point> “OF THE WEEK” is “the Sabbath Day”.

    <The idea> is that the determining “Day OF THE WEEK”—its last and ‘Seventh Day’—as it happened to be “according to the Scriptures”—is the “Sabbath”.

    It therefore is the “SABBATH Day’s WEEK”, the “SABBATH Day’s cycle-of-days”, the “SABBATH Day’s set of days”, the “SABBATH Day’s pattern of seven days”—NO OTHER day’s cycle-of-days, no other day’s set of days”, no other day’s <pattern of seven days>.
    “The week” is the cycle of seven days pointing at “the Sabbath Day” its last and central, hub-day, the “SABBATH”.

    The <idea> contained in the word ‘Sabbatohn’, “Sabbath-of-the-week”, is that NO OTHER day than “the Sabbath” of the cycle of seven days called the “week”, can take in “the Sabbath’s” place—or it no longer is “the week”—the “WEEK OF THE SABBATH DAY”.

    The “week” – in the New Testament [in the Old Testament it’s another matter] – cannot be a ‘-cycle’ or ‘set of days’ or <<pattern of seven days>> around another day than the “Sabbath”; the “week” is the seven days “OF THE SABBATH” [Plural or Singular makes no difference because the Idiom is “Sabbatohn” or “Sabbatou” for “the week”.]

    “Sabbath’s Day” excludes any other day or days “OF THE WEEK” as the central day or <point> around which “the week”, turns.

    The whole <idea> and the whole <point> have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LAW. What makes you associate the New Testament use of the Greek metaphor or idiom of “Sabbatohn” for “the week” with the Law, only you would know.

     
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Sorry, I don’t understand.
    Obviously when it’s not ‘the Sabbath-of-the-week’ but the “First (Day)-of-the-week”, the Greek consistently will be <<either "mia sabbaton" or "proto sabbatou>>.
    Which confirms the <idea> and the <point> I have so far maintained regarding the meaning of the metaphor / idiom ‘sabbatohn’ / ‘sabbatou’ in the New Testament.

    What I cannot understand is how you managed to conclude from the obvious the completely unfathomable, that <<the words "sabbaton" or "sabbatou" do not convey "of the week" either>>.
    Where are the instances that you must have had in mind; and what is the CONTEXT in each instance? As far as memory goes, there is is no incidence of the use of these two terms in the New Testament where it is not clear from the context that the Sabbath as such [as “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath”] or “the First Day of the week” is the <idea> or <point>. [One exception but I must go now!]
     
  13. Gup20

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    I agree.... and the law WILL be fulfilled in us by the death of our bodies. We need Christ and His sacrifice to obtain the life necessary for our spirit to "survive" the death of our bodies (resurrection).

    Correction - we are free to, but it is not profitable for us. We have the opportunity instead to use that freedom to serve, love, and honor God. Through Christ we are free from sin, so why submit ourselves anymore to it's bondage.

    1Cr 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.​
     
  14. The Biblicist

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    Ok, I can agree with that
     
  15. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Where is <The Sabbath law … kept by men from Genesis 2> and where are the <men> who <kept the Sabbath law from Genesis 2>? Where are the <human calendars>? Where are the <human calculations> … <from Genesis 2>?!
    They only exist in the Biblicist’s imagination.
    Now build an argument against the Sabbath with that, against the Sabbath revealed by, in and according to Jesus Christ ALIVE WORD OF GOD AMONGST US who live “in these last days” in which “God thus concerning the Seventh Day … BY THE SON … SPAKE”?!
    For in fact, <<The Sabbath law is not founded upon human calendars or calculations kept by men>> but upon God and upon his “finishing”, “blessing” and “sanctification” “by the exceeding greatness of his power which He WROUGHT AND TRIUMPHED IN WHEN HE RAISED CHRIST FROM THE DEAD”!
    The Sabbath is not founded upon anything human; it is founded upon and in God in Christ who “MADE the Sabbath”; it is founded upon and in “the Son of Man who lays HOLD on the Sabbath”, who “is Lord of the Sabbath Day”—who “KEEPS the Sabbath that it is not corrupted” by human forgetfulness or holy intentions; who keeps the Sabbath from human pollution by human law, through human calendars and calculations; “the Sabbath of the LORD our GOD”, “The Lord’s Day”, is anchored in and founded upon “the Son of Man who lays hold on and keeps the Sabbath Day” … safe above all from HUMAN KEEPING!
     
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    <God> never and nowhere and no how ever, <<applied the Sabbath> or its <law>, <<to FIXED dates>> of <calendar>-years or <calculated> seasons or months or days other than the week’s seven <pattern of days> … NEVER!
    <<Fixed DATES in the Jewish calendar as in Levitucs 23>>, <fell on various days of the week>—NEVER is “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD” <applied> or MOVED from its <fixed> position in the week’s ‘set’ or <pattern of days> onto any <<FIXED dates in the Jewish calendar as in Levitucs 23>>. Your ‘application’ is twisted right opposite the true <calendar as in Levitucs 23>.

    “The day The Seventh Day is Sabbath of the LORD GOD” is Scripture. You simply won’t abide by Scripture, dear Biblicist!
     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Very impressive yet skewed arguing.
    Indeed – and please take it to heart, yourself - <<God is not establishing an infallible calendar that keeps track of every seventh day since Genesis 2.>>
    “God”—not any humans—<established>—that is, “made”—an unfailing, every Seventh Day of the week recurring, “Sabbath, the day The Seventh Day GOD, thus concerning”—<since Genesis 2>—, “through the prophets”, and—“in THESE, LAST days, “by the SON spake”, REGARDLESS MAN'S USE OR ABUSE OR KEEPING OR DESPISING OF IT.

    What do you want more or better for <<a principle that can be applied at any time>> and “the Sabbath the Son of Man is Lord of” unfailingly every week will be recognised for its “Seventh Day” NO MATTER what the <<day or date in any human calendar>> might be!

    SINCE JESUS CHRIST by example in his Church attendance
    “every Sabbath Day as his (Divine) custom was”,
    choice of day to restore wholeness of soul, body and life itself on, choice of day to fulfil prophecy by, and
    Himself to RISE FROM THE DEAD ON,
    time itself and God’s own PREDETERMINATION <since Genesis 2> have COINCIDED and ever since have kept <track> of EVERY Seventh Day—it all the while having been why God Himself “hallowed = sanctified = SET IT APART” as “My Holy Day” for holy <application> in service in the worship of Him.

    To imagine failure in simple consistency in sequence of the Day Jesus Christ “made” and is “Keeper-Protector” and “Lord of”, is an insulting reflection on his character.
     
    #17 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 9, 2013
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  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    To allege, <<the DATES in Leviticus 23 are completely arbitrary selections for Sabbath law application>> is INCORRECT.
    First, <<the selections>> of <<the DATES in Leviticus 23>>, are not of God’s <<completely arbitrary>> <selection>.

    Next, the <dates selections> re the passover and the day of atonement <in Leviticus 23> were <completely> HUMAN, but,

    Third, absolutely NOT, <arbitrary>. They were derived from the laws of nature’s <<infallible calendar>> that has kept track of every day, month, season and year—since Genesis 1 in fact—, and had absolutely NO connection with <every seventh day since Genesis 2>.
    “THESE—specific, non-arbitrary—are the feast days of the LORD WHICH--specifically, non-arbitrarily—YOU [not God] must PRO-claim [that is, <calculate> and make <law>] in / according to their SEASONS”—“seasons” of the “year”; “these are the feast days” of the “winter and summer (seasons that) shall not fail”; “these are the feast days” of the “(new) moons”; “these are the feast days” to their <dates> within these years, season, and, or, “months” … like “the FOURTEENTH day of the FIRST Month”. Never were any of “these feast days” like “the fourteenth day of the First Month” or “the tenth day of the Seventh Month” or “the seventh day of the feast of unleavened bread” called “the day The Seventh Day SABBATH OF THE LORD GOD”.
    Because God—not <arbitrarily> but specifically—calls “the day The Seventh Day” by NAME: “SABBATH-OF-THE-LORD-GOD”.
    Therefore “these feast days” were “feasts of the Lord WHICH,
    a) YE,
    b) MUST,
    c) PROCLAIM,
    d) TO convocate, TO offer, TO sacrifice,
    e) EVERYTHING upon its (own) day,
    f) BESIDE the SABBATHS—“the day The Seventh Day SABBATH OF THE LORD” GOD!

    So, to claim <<the DATES in Leviticus 23 are completely arbitrary selections [by God] for Sabbath law application>>, deceives.

    TWICE only in the entire Old Testament are days reckoned according to their season, called ‘sabbath’,
    1) the passover’s ‘sabbath’ the fifteenth day of the First MONTH—irrespective on which day of the WEEK it might have fallen;
    2) the day of atonement’s “tenth day of the Seventh MONTH” and its “eighth day” after, the last day of the atonement and seventh day of staying in booths—again, irrespective which day of the WEEK it might have fallen on.
    To conclude therefore <<the DATES in Leviticus 23 are completely arbitrary selections for Sabbath law application>> is just nonsensical untruth. And also to conclude that <<Likewise, after the cross God can and did arbitrarily established the resurrection DAY as the seventh day Sabbath in a pattern of seven days>> just makes no sense at all!
    On the contrary, God RAISED CHRIST FROM THE DEAD “IN / ON THE SABBATH”—“in / on the Sabbath Day”— the Sabbath Day <<in a pattern of seven days>. God specifically raised Christ from the dead “in / on the Sabbath” “the Sabbath” being “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD”.

    God only COULD—ABSOLUTELY TRUE “according to the Scriptures”—, and God in fulfilment of the promises and prophecies of all Scripture DID—“according to His Eternal Purpose” and “Covenant of Grace”—<<establish>> the Sabbath Day as Resurrection Day of Jesus Christ from the dead.

    God NEVER does ANYTHING, <<arbitrarily>>!

    So, how <is this> ALLEGED <fact> of yours that <<the DATES in Leviticus 23 are completely arbitrary selections (which God had made) for Sabbath law application>>, <established> by your, ‘arbitrary’, statement that <<where Saturday is being observed on one side of a time zone line … Friday or Sunday is being observed on the other side of the time zone lines>>?

    Your choice of ‘fact’ to <<established the resurrection DAY as the seventh day Sabbath in a pattern of seven days>> CONTRADICTING “THE DAY The SEVENTH, Day—Sabbath of the LORD GOD” is “the Sabbath-of–the-week”, ‘Sabbatohn’ … that now, is what must be viewed as ‘arbitrary’ and illogical to the extreme. Sorry!

     
    #18 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 9, 2013
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  19. BobRyan

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    You are gaming the question.

    In Lev 23 the 4th commandment Sabbath as well as other Sabbaths are mentioned.

    In each case "The day selected is not up to the whim of man".

    In each case "God alone selects the very day". His authority alone can sanctify, bless, hallow - and make the day an obligation for mankind.

    In each case the authority rests with God - and no man-made tradition is allowed to change month or day at the whim of man.

    In the special case of what you call the "Seventh day" observance - the 4th commandment - God has selected "the day" as the Seventh not the First.

    In Exodus 16 the very day is pointed out "tomorrow is the Sabbath" just so there is not confusion and of course no manna falls on that very day.

    In each context there is no option of "pick whatever day you wish for manna not to fall and it will be so".

    No chance at all for mankind to edit the Word of God.

    Just stating the obvious - but sometimes that is a good starting point.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #19 BobRyan, Jul 9, 2013
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  20. BobRyan

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    The Baptist Confession of Faith states firmly that the Ten Commandments (all Ten -- including the 4th) are still binding on all mankind today - even the saints and written on the heart and mind under the New Covenant.

    I am happy with that.

    How about you?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     

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