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The Salvation Issue

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by jprieto, Sep 25, 2008.

  1. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Hmm. His theology is certainly Calvinist. I guess he should answer for himself, but I have seen his posts where he says that a person is already saved from the foundation of the world, they just don't know it until they hear the gospel.
     
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    The wind blows where it desires and we see only its effect.

    The holy Spirit of God regenerates God's selected ones, bestowing grace and life on them. We only see the effect of this internal working, in repentance and faith.

    Show me one WITHOUT the visible "effect" that all regenerate have, and it indicates that there was no unseen "cause".

    If you are regenerated by God, you (and others) will know it. Cannot envision anyone believing otherwise.
     
  3. JDale

    JDale Member
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    They all do -- in a "theoretical" sense -- "unconditional election from eternity past."
     
  4. JDale

    JDale Member
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    You are correct JS (Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:26-31) Except, the term "lose" is a bit out of step with what the Scriptures describe. A better word would be "forfeit," or if one wishes to use explicitly Biblical terms, "fall away" is found in Hebrews, and "Shipwreck of faith" is mentioned in I Timothy 1:19. There is also the phrase "turn away" in Hebrews 12:25, and"turn from" in II Peter 2:21. These are a few just off the top of my head.

    The Greek words Apostasia and Parapipto are used in varying forms particularly in the Hebrews passages has explicit meaning. In Hebrews 12:25 "turn" is Apostrepho and variously means "defect, return, desert, remove, pervert." In Hebrews 6:6, parapipto may be understood as "deviate, err, slip aside, wander, and fall away from true faith."

    Thus, if one comes to the point of Apostasy, it is a final and irredeemable condition. Those who hold to this theological position do NOT believe one can slide in and out of salvation on a whim, nor do they believe apostasy is the common experience for Christians. They DO affirm that it is a grave, dangerous and real POSSIBILITY, and that examples of such in Scripture are only cited rarely.

    JDale
     
  5. lbaker

    lbaker New Member

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    JDale,

    I think we agree on this. Would you see "forfeiting" salvation as being pretty much a case of someone who deliberately decides to no longer have faith in Christ, i.e. someone converting to Islam, or Judaism, or to a truly works based method of salvation. I'm not talking about someone temporarily overwhelmed and having an emotional period of doubt, but a deliberate, conscious walking away from faith.
     
  6. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Many Baptists use Romans 8:35-39 as proof of security salvation, that no one can 'separate' us from the love of God.

    Understanding, this passage is talking about everything cannot separate us from God's love. This passage is NOT discuss about sin, this is talking about anything as we are facing the situations, everything cannot seapate us from God's love toward us. Many Christians did faced trials in their life, while God still love them same time.

    Also, many Baptists use John 10:27-29 as proof of security salvation that,no one can lose their salvation, also, no one can take us away or out of Christ's hand, because Christ have the power to securte us.

    Understanding, notice verse 27 saying that anyone who do hear God's Word, and do follow Christ, Christ have his power to secure them LONG AS they continue follow Christ same time. Unless, if they stopped follow Christ. Christ would loose them out of his hand, if they turn away from Him.

    Clearly, "heard" and "follow" are conditional that we must require to meet it that we can have eternal life. If we stopped listening God's Words, and stopped follow Christ, then afterward we would be no longer remain in Christ's hand.

    Christ does not force us to follow Him, we have choices and decisions, that is our freewill to make choices. If we decide turn away from Christ, then He would loose us out of his hand.

    So therefore, John 10:27-29 is not the proof of unconditional security salvation.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  7. Pipedude

    Pipedude Active Member

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    There is no such thing. When one side presents an unanswerable verse, the other side simply answers it anyway. It's been that way for several years.
    See?
    Wonderful! I wish you the best.
    As one who has sojourned amongst the insecure for the better part of thirty years, I think you're misinterpreting the data. I've seen insecuritists whose lives would curl your hair if you knew the details. And I've seen securitists who reminded me of Jesus. In short, having spent a lot of time in both camps, I've never seen a correlation between holiness and the doctrine of perseverance. You either love God or you don't.

    I don't believe in divorce, but it hasn't affected my love for my wife one way or the other.
     
  8. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

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    Matthew 24:13 - "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." To endure means to remain, not to recede or flee, to preserve under misfortunes and trials, to hold fast to one's faith in Christ, to bear bravely and calmly ill treatments. It's the same word here: If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us -

    2 Timothy 2:12. We must endure through whatever comes our way all the way until we die with Him in our lives, then we will live and reign with Him. If we wind up denying Him before the time of our death, you can't get around the word of God here, He will deny us.

    Matthew 24:24,25 - "For false Christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand."

    Luke 12:45, 46 - "But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers."

    Luke 8:11-15 "Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and they are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity."

    Luke 14:34, 35 - Jesus said, "Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is neither fit for the land nor for the dunghill, but men throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" ~ Note: Jesus' point is that the same is true of a saltless disciple.

    Luke 15:13 - Jesus said, "And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living." ~ Luke 15:21 - "And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son." ~ Note: This guy knew he fell into the bondage of sin and was no longer considered worthy to be a child of God, but his father said...
    Luke 15:24 - "'for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' And they began to be merry." ~ Note: The word for dead here means spiritually dead, destitute of a life that recognizes and is devoted to God because given up to trespasses and sins.


    John 15:1, 2 - Jesus said, "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away..." ~ Note: This is someone in Christ who gets taken away because they did not bear fruit.

    John 15:6 - Jesus said, "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered (Note: in order to be cast out, one must first be in Christ); and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." ~ Note: The word for abide also means remain, continue, endure, not to depart, to continue to be present, to remain as one, not to become another or different.

    Romans 11:17-22 - And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

    1 Corinthians 3:16, 17 - Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

    1 Corinthians 9:27 - But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. ~ Note: Paul was talking about being disqualified to receive the prize of the imperishable crown (received in eternal life) as the 2 previous verses in the Bible explain.

    1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you -- unless you believed in vain.

    Galatians 5:4,7 - You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law (the O.T. law); you have fallen from grace... You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?

    Philippians 2:12,13 - Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

    Colossians 1:22,23 - ...to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight -- if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel...

    1 Thessalonians 3:5 - For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.
    1 Thessalonians 3:8 - For now we live, if you stand fast in the Lord.
    2 Thessalonians 2:3 - Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (the return of Christ) will not come unless the falling away comes first...

    1 Timothy 1:5-7 - ... sincere faith, from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

    1 Timothy 3:6 - not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.

    1 Timothy 3:7 - Moreover he (the bishop, overseer, elder, officer of a church) must have a good testimony among those who are outside (the people who are lost), lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

    1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

    1 Timothy 5:12 - Having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith.

    1 Timothy 5:15 - For some have already turned aside after Satan. ~ Note: They no longer followed Christ. To come to Christ is not a one-time deal and it is all over with. You can turn aside after Satan just like these people did. Don't do it!

    1 Timothy 6:10 - For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

    1 Timothy 6:20,21 - O Timothy! Guard what was committed to your trust, avoiding the profane and idle babblings and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge -- by professing it some have strayed concerning the faith.

    2 Timothy 2:15 - Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    2 Timothy 2:17, 18 - And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

    2 Timothy 3:14,15 - But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of... the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. ~ Note: The word for continue also means abide, remain, endure, not to depart. So this is saying not to depart from what we were taught with God's word that makes us know how to be saved.

    2 Timothy 4:3,4 - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

    Hebrews 2:1-3 - Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord...?

    Hebrews 3:12,13 - Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
    Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.

    Hebrews 3:18 - 4:1 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.

    Hebrews 4:11 - Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
    Hebrews 4:12,13 - For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, ... and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
     
  9. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

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    Hebrews 6:4-6 - For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

    Hebrews 10:26 - For if we sin willfully (as opposed to sins committed inconsiderately, and from ignorance or from weakness) after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

    Hebrews 10:29 - Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified (note: this person was saved, see, he had been sanctified) a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? ~ Note: It's a much worse punishment for the backslider who does not repent.

    Hebrews 10:38 - "Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, my soul has no pleasure in him."

    Hebrews 12:15-17 - looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

    Deut. 29:18-20 - so that there may not be among you man or woman or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations, and that there may not be among you a root bearing bitterness or wormwood; and so it may not happen, when he hears the words of this curse, that he blesses himself in his heart, saying, 'I shall have peace, even though I follow the dictates of my heart' -- as though the drunkard could be included with the sober. The Lord would not spare him, for then the anger of the Lord and His jealousy would burn against that man, and every curse that is written in this book would settle on him, and the Lord would blot out his name from under heaven.

    James 1:14,15 - But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

    James 5:19,20 - Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

    1 Peter 1:9 - receiving the end of your faith -- the salvation of your souls.

    2 Peter 1:10 - Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble.

    2 Peter 2:15,16 - They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man's voice restrained the madness of the prophet.

    2 Peter 2:20,21 - For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

    2 Peter 3:17,18 - You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. If you are led away into that, this Scripture implies that you have lost your salvation.

    1 John 2:24, 25 - Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He has promised us -- eternal life.

    1 John 2:28 - And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. ~ Note: John is telling Christians to abide in Christ. What if they didn't abide? They wouldn't have confidence at the Lord's coming is what it implies.

    Revelation 2:5-7 - "Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place -- unless you repent... He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."

    Revelation 2:10,11 - "Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested... Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death."

    Revelation 3:1-5 - ..."I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before My God. Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

    Revelation 3:16 - "So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of My mouth."

    Revelation 22:19 - and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    John 3:36 - "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” This believing in Jesus Christ is not a one-time deal and it's all over with. You must be committed unto Him or else you are no longer a believer.

    Romans 8:35-39 ? Where do you think this means eternal security? No where does this talk about you being safe from your own sin. The word nakedness in Romans 8:35 does not mean sin. The word occurs 3 times in the NT.

    John 6:35-37 - Jesus said, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." ~ Note: I already told you that to believe in Jesus Christ means that you keep believing and obeying Him with a continuous action of it. The s at the end of the word believe also shows that it is about presently doing it. Also, "who comes to Me" is about those who keep coming to Him, because it's in the present tense. That is when he won't cast you out. But if you stop obeying Him or stop coming to Him, it's a different story.

    John 10:27-30 - Jesus said, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one" ~ Note: This is for the ones who continue to follow Christ.

    John 8:12 - "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life." The word for darkness also means the darkness due to want of light, metaph. used of ignorance of divine things and its associated wickedness and the resultant misery in hell. That means you do not practice sin (wickedness). Those who do are not following Christ. So this 10:28,29 is for those who follow Christ and are His disciples and do not practice sin. "neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand." The word snatch also means pluck, to seize, carry off by force. This is talking about anyone besides yourself.

    Hebrews 10:10,14 - By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all... For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. ~ Note: Yes, this is true for those who are being sanctified. But if a servant of God starts beating people up and getting drunk (Luke 12:45), then that is not being sanctified, and that person will be punished by perishing with the unbelievers (Luke 12:46, 47).

    1 Peter 1:5, 9 - who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time... receives the end of your faith -- the salvation of your souls. ~ Note: The key point here is through faith. The word for "through" also means by, by the means of, the reason by which something is or is not done. So that's how we are kept.

    2 Timothy 2:10 - Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. ~ Note: The word for may also means to chance to be. This is not a definite given. There is the possibility of it not happening. This is more proof that the elect don't have salvation yet.
     
  10. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

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    Gal. 1:4 and 1 Thes. 4:3 also prove that the will of God is not always done. It is possible that the elect can be deceived (Matthew 24:24).

    2 Timothy 2:11-13 - This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He will also deny us. If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. ~ Note: The word for if is a primary particle of conditionality. Clearly, this makes our final salvation conditional. The word for endure is suffer in the KJV.

    Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

    Ephesians 1:11-14 - In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the councel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
     
  11. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Talk is cheap.
    I say take them up on the offer and ask for a real-life demonstration.
    Ask one of them to loose their salvation.

    Rob
     
  12. Pipedude

    Pipedude Active Member

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    Unanswerable!

    No dissenter can argue against that kind of logic. :thumbs:
     
  13. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    He can speak for himself,but his theology veers from Calvinism on some matters.That's why he maintains that he's not a Calvinist.On the other hand,he's certainly no Arminian.

    Calvinists do not believe that one is saved from the foundation of the world -- but elect from before the creation of the world.They just don't realize that they're saved until they hear the Gospel?! No.We don't think that is biblical.

    Some higher to hyper-Calvinists believe in Eternal Justification;but that's another issue beyond this subject.
     
  14. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    So you think that those who believe that they were elect from eternity past also hold to the notion of being saved without knowing it?! No.They are not related.Show me any Calvinistic Systematic,or Confession of Faith that maintains that idea.
     
  15. JDale

    JDale Member
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    Yes, lbaker. That's exactly what I'm saying. Thanks!

    JDale
     
  16. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    JDale, I have heard of this "forfeiting" salvation before, but I just don't understand it. How does one forfeit the Holy Spirit that God has given him? How can one say he doesn't believe in God anymore? It's kind of like saying I don't believe in gravity anymore.

    Are there any accounts of this in scripture?
     
  17. JDale

    JDale Member
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    Rip:

    I was referring to the "Eternal Justification" that many "higher" or hyper-Calvinists affirm, as you mentioned in an earlier post.

    I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek in saying "they all do" in a "theoretical sense." I had a poster here tell me a few weeks back that there is NO difference theologically between a so-called "hyper-Calvinist" and your everyday run-of-the-mill 5 point Calvie -- only in the way they apply it and in how "forceful" they are in insisting it IS truth or "reality."

    If you draw a distinction here, I am glad to acknowledge it, even if it seems to be splitting Calvin's hairs. [​IMG]


    JDale
     
  18. JDale

    JDale Member
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    As I've pointed out, the description of this possibility is clearly spelled out in Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-31. As to actual personal examples, I would point to Hymenaeus and Alexander, who are described as having made "shipwreck" of their faith (I Timothy 1:18-20).

    And, while names aren't given specifically, other passages point to the actual or future apostasy of some (II Peter 2:18-22; I Timothy 4:1ff).

    It isn't surprising that a follower of Jesus finds this hard to comprehend. I do! I love Jesus, and He loves ME! WHY would I want out?! Yet, it is mentioned as possibility in Scripture, thus, as a Biblical Christian I cannot discount it.

    JDale
     
  19. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    All Scripture From TNIV

    Romans 8:38-39 is indeed wonderful.However,it's predicated on Romans 8:28-30:

    And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,who have been called according to his purpose.For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son,that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.And those he predestined,he also called;those he called,he also justified;those he justified he also glorified.
     
  20. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Which is not the subject of the OP. :rolleyes:
     
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