The Scriptural Foundations of Calvinism

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by qwerty, Jan 27, 2003.

  1. qwerty

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    In this thread, please post the appropriate scriptures that give the foundation for Calvinism. Only post the scriptures, both text and references, and possibly one sentence about how this scripture supports Calvinism.
    Please do not add any comments or interpretation. Let the scriptures speak.
    There are other threads to add comment or interpretation.
     
  2. sturgman

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    These are not all of them, but I think they are a good start.

    Total Depravity -
    3:3 True, some of them were unfaithful; but just because they broke their promises, does that mean God will break his promises?

    3:4 Of course not! Though everyone else in the world is a liar, God is true. As the Scriptures say, "He will be proved right in what he says, and he will win his case in court."

    3:5 "But," some say, "our sins serve a good purpose, for people will see God's goodness when he declares us sinners to be innocent. Isn't it unfair, then, for God to punish us?" (That is actually the way some people talk.)

    3:6 Of course not! If God is not just, how is he qualified to judge the world?

    3:7 "But," some might still argue, "how can God judge and condemn me as a sinner if my dishonesty highlights his truthfulness and brings him more glory?"

    3:8 If you follow that kind of thinking, however, you might as well say that the more we sin the better it is! Those who say such things deserve to be condemned, yet some slander me by saying this is what I preach!

    3:9 Well then, are we Jews better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin.

    3:10 As the Scriptures say, "No one is good ? not even one

    3:11 No one has real understanding; no one is seeking God.

    3:12 All have turned away from God; all have gone wrong. No one does good, not even one."

    3:13 "Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave. Their speech is filled with lies." "The poison of a deadly snake drips from their lips."

    3:14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."

    3:15 "They are quick to commit murder.?

    3:16 ?Wherever they go, destruction and misery follow them.?

    Again it says in Psalm 5:5 "Therefore, the proud will not be allowed to stand in your presence,
    For you hate all who do evil."

    Unconditional Election - (Though these are not the only)

    (Romans 9:6) But it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

    (Romans 9:7) and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but "Through Isaac shall your descendants be named."

    (Romans 9:8) This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are reckoned as descendants.

    (Romans 9:9) For this is what the promise said, "About this time I will return and Sarah shall have a son."
    (Romans 9:10) And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,

    (Romans 9:11) though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call,

    (Romans 9:12) she was told, "The elder will serve the younger."

    (Romans 9:13) As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

    (Romans 9:14) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!

    (Romans 9:15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

    (Romans 9:16) So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.

    (Romans 9:17) For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth."

    (Romans 9:18) So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

    (Romans 9:19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"

    (Romans 9:20) But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?"

    (Romans 9:21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?

    (Romans 9:22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,

    (Romans 9:23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory,

    (Romans 9:24) even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

    Limited Atonment -

    (Matthew 1:21) And she shall give birth to a son, and you shall call His name Jesus; for HE shall save HIS people from their sins.

    (John 6:39) And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

    (John 10:14-18; 24-30) "14 I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me- 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
    24The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

    Irresistable Grace -

    (1John 4:19.5) We love, because he first loved us.

    (John 10:1) "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber;

    (John 10:2) but he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

    (John 10:3) To him the gatekeeper opens; the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

    (John 10:4) When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

    Perseverence of the Saints -

    (John 10:26) but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep.

    (John 10:27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me;

    (John 10:28) and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.

    (John 10:29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

    (John 10:30) I and the Father are one."

    (Philippians 1:6) being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it to the day of Christ.

    Ephesians 2:10 says that we were created for good works,

    (Romans 8:35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    (Romans 8:36) As it is written, "For thy sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."

    (Romans 8:37) No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

    (Romans 8:38) For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

    (Romans 8:39) nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
     
  3. npetreley

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  4. sturgman

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    [Reference to offtopic deleted post removed to preserve the theme of this thread.] I only know what Romans 9 says is that salvation is a matter of God's mercy, not me finding God or anything I do. See also John 1, and I hate to say it, but all over scripture.

    [ January 28, 2003, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  5. sturgman

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    Actually, I don't hate to say it. I love to say it. IT IS ALL OVER SCRIPTURE!!! Feels great. If Romans 9 does not talk of election, then what does it talk about? I would be interested to know.
     
  6. IndpndntBptst

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    "As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God." (Romans 9:26)

    Perhaps the whole issue In Romans 9 is the judicial blindness of Israel and God turning to the Gentiles. After all, Jacob and Esau were represntative of two groups of people. The issue was not merely the election of two people, but two peoples, that is, their posterity. Notice that it never says anything about God damning Esau or His descendants. Either the posterity of Jacob or that of Esau had to be chosen to receive special blessings from God. It was according to the mercy of God and not works. It could be the Gentiles as a whole who are under consideration. God elected Israel as a nation, but not all of them were saved. If election was merely of two individuals, Jacob and Esau, the purpose of God according to Calvinistic election failed. Esau the individual never did serve Jacob; in fact it was, if anything, the other way around. Jacob bowed himself down to the ground before Esau (Gen. 33:3), addressing him as "my Lord" (Gen. 33:8, 13) and calling himself Esau's servant (Gen. 33:5); Jacob begged Esau to accept his gifts (Gen. 33:11) for Esau's face seemed like the face of God to him (Gen. 33:10). Esau the individual certainly did not serve Jacob, it was the nation Esau (Edom) which served the nation Jacob (Israel). The point Paul is illustrating is that God's choice of Israel was made when both nations were still in the womb, and neither had done good or evil. The choice of the nation was not a reward for good works, but part of the purpose of God. I am interested in knowing how many children you all have because I wonder if you all ever sit and try to figure out which one is it that God hates and has predestinated to hell.

    "And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated," (Genesis 29:30, 31)

    Hate in this text means that Rachel was loved more than Leah, not that Leah was despised with a positive hatred (cf. Luke 14:26). It simply means that Israel was chosen and Edom was not. Jacob represented Israel and Esau represented Edom. This has nothing to do with eternal salvation.

    "In the papyri (ancient secular writings dating to biblical times), the expressions "loved" and 'hated' are used of a man who could only afford to adopt only one of two twin orphaned boys. He was said to have 'loved' the one he adopted and "hated" the one he did not adopt. Here all that is signified is that Jacob was blessed and Esau was not." (The King James Study Bible)
     
  7. Skandelon

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    Hey independant Baptist, this posts is asking for Scriptures that support your view points not a defense of your beliefs.
     
  8. IndpndntBptst

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    "Hey independant Baptist, this posts is asking for Scriptures that support your view points not a defense of your beliefs."

    What, may I ask is the difference??? Posting the Scriptures that support your viewpoint and defending your viewpoint is the same thing I'm afraid.
     
  9. sturgman

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    Ok, you are right, when Paul is speaking of Jacob and Esau, is is speaking of a National election. But he doesn't start there. He starts with Abraham, and with Isaac and Ishmael. Then he goes to Jacob and Esau. Romans is nothing but an Old Testement bible study. It is not Pauls ideas that he just jotted down. He is trying to show his bretheren (vs 1,2) what salvation is and how it comes about. So you summed up one of Paul's illustrations of God's sovereign election, but the issue still remains. God does choose nationally, but He also chooses salvifically. See also verse 22, and 23 of Romans 9. I am not seeing how you say this chapter has nothing to do with the salvation of God, I see it has everything to do with the salvation of God.

    By the way, I have a 7 month old son, and I would rather trust in a loving, merciful God who saves people (spriptural) than a God who is cruel enough to let a sinful dead person to "find" God on His own. To me that is unmerciful, and unbiblical. It is what Schaffer calls an absentee landlord. And the God of the bible is actively seeking His sheep.
     
  10. Skandelon

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    Independant Baptist,

    I have two boys and a girl on the way. Like Sturgman, I believe in a God who would not leave a decision like that up to a rebellious, sinful heart.

    It sounds like you trust your children to make better decisions about their eternity than your god. Your god must not be very good, because you actually believe your children might make better decisions than he does. It must be tough believing in such a small, pitiful god.

    I wander how many children you have and how difficult it must be for you to sit around and think that their eternal destiny is not secured in God's Soveriegn hand, but is up to their sinful hearts to make a free willed choice. It must be nerve racking to think that they might miss heaven because you as their parent say something wrong.

    Silly Arminians.

    [ January 28, 2003, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Samuel ]
     
  11. RaptureReady

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    If your god is loving and merciful, why does he not save everyone?



    Funny, as I was reading this I was thinking the same thing about you. When you talk about a sinful heart, I hope that you are talking about yourself also.(Romans 3:23,5:12) Just curious, how are you getting to Heaven?
     
  12. npetreley

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    Huh? If your viewpoint is that when we all die we go to Harry's Bar and Grill in Piscatawy, NJ, then I would like to see you provide some scriptural support for that conclusion and not just defend it with your opinions. We disagree on central issues here, and both sides think the other side is not scriptural. (And sometimes I believe free will is about as scriptural as the Harry's scenario.) So scripture is most definitely called for.
     
  13. sturgman

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    Originally posted by homebound

    If your god is loving and merciful, why does he not save everyone?

    ------------------------------------------------

    My God is loving and merciful. As for your question, let me respond with another set of questions.

    Are you a universalist? Unless you are, then you don't believe God should save everybody either. God should save no one. For God to save one, that would be a great act of mercy. But he didn't, he save a multitude of people, that is an incredible act of grace.

    Second, Do you always say that God has do give the same to everyone to be loving and merciful? Where in you bible does it say that God has to be fair to men? I read in Exodus 4 where God tells Moses "who made the blind, the deaf, and the mute?" And you notice that God did not apologize. God does not have to be fair, He must only be just.

    Thirdly, DO you really believe that God must account for who is in Hell? I believe that man deserves hell and God does not have to account for everyone who goes there. He must only account for those sinners who are in heaven. For that he gave his son, and he wrote books like Romans, Ephesians, ... well all of them.

    This post started out by saying "What scriptural evidence do you have to support you calvinistic beliefs?" I gave scripture, yet the only defence I see from the opposed side is logic, feelinf, and scenerios like "how many kids do you have". Please excuse me if I don't change my theology based upon feeling, human logic and the condition I find myself in as a parent. I think I will believe about God what He reveals about himself in scripture.
     
  14. Skandelon

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    Homebound,
    Of course that applies to me. I'm a sinner saved by Grace, not by human decision as your theology teaches. If you read the post you would see that I was making the arguement that "the age of accountability" doctrine makes God into a passive being watching and hoping from afar as He trusts the heart of a sinful child to see if they make the right decision for Him. That's not biblical.
     
  15. IndpndntBptst

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    First of all, Calvinism teaches a repulsive view of God. It is poison, and, as Charles Wesley wrote, Calvinism is "worthy of whence it came!" It surely did not come from the word of God. Calvinism, named after its founder, John Calvin, reduces men to mere robots. That is not sovereignty. If I had to tie someone up with a rope to prevent them from moving, you would probably say it was because I was NOT sovereign over that individual. On the other hand, if I permitted choices and still managed to maintain control, you would probably say that I was working all things well.

    Calvinism makes reprobation an eternal decree of God. The Bible never teaches that reprobation is an eternal decree of God. Romans 1:18-24 expressly teach that reprobation is the judgment of God pronounced upon those who KNEW the truth, but suppressed it. They knew God, but they refused to acknowledge Him. Therefore, reprobation is not unconditional. Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 2:10, "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." According to the Calvinistic caste system, those who perish could not receive the love of the truth that they might be saved because God eternally predestinated them to destruction. I am not appealing to "humanism" as you might accuse me, but I am appealing to the Scriptures using common sense. If these people had no chance to be saved, why would Paul make such a statement? Since Calvinism was not taught in the early church, perhaps Paul was just ignorant of all the "enlightenment" that Calvinists possess. God said of the woman Jezebel in Revelation 2:21, "And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not." God granted her repentance, but she did not repent!

    If God has predestinated all things, what about those verses in the Bible that explicitly declare that there are things of which God was not the author? Jeremiah 7:9-10, "Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not; And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do these abominations?" Jeremiah 7:31, "And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart." Psalms 81:11-13, "But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me. So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels. Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways!" Romans 10:21, "But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

    Revelation 4:11, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." Calvinists often use this text to justify Calvinistic election and reprobation, but may I ask one question? What pleasure would you get out of creating a robot with no will that can only act as it is programmed to do so? There is no pleasure in that, much less glory and honour and power.
     
  16. sturgman

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    There is a great difference from not having free will and having no will at all. If you cannot see the difference, break it down gramatically. No one here has said that we have no will, only that it is slaved to sin. That was not new to Calvin, it was said by Augustine, and before that, Paul, and before that Jesus, and before that David, and before that Moses, and before that God the Father. So don't say it is new to Calvin. Every verse you used were speaking of God's children who rebel. The only other verse you used was about Jezebel and it proved nothing except that God holds her accountable to her actions. So the next thiong you say would be that "how can God hold us accountable for what he ordained us to do?" Look at Romans 9, "Who are you oh man to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to the molder, 'why did you make me like this?' or does not the potter have right over the clay."

    Secondly, Calvinism does not make us out to be robots. We do have a will, we have a sinful enslaved will that will always choose sin, see also Romans 3.

    I think most of your problem with calvinism is you lack of understanding of it. So, since were quoting guys like Wesley, (someone who believed in a second work of God) let me quote Charles Hodge (Long time Princeton Theology prof) "How you see God in the issue of election is the wood shed of how you see God" and it is. God is not a weak grandfather who sits back and let sinners decide what is His to decide, he is active.

    It is said that we are born of God. It is funny that my son was born to me, not because of his love for me, but because my wife and I declared our love for each other, and bestowed our love upon a child. Let's not get the cart before the horse.
     
  17. IndpndntBptst

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    Whether those under consideration in Jeremiah 7:9-10, 31 were the children of God is not the issue. The issue is that God said in Jeremiah 7:9-10, "Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not; And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do these abominations?" If God predestinated their sins, cerainly they WERE delivered to commit those abominations. Do you think God was lying? I once heard a Calvinist say that such things are the "secret will" of God. The revealed will of God and the secret will of God do NOT contradict each other. Again, in Jeremiah 7:31, the children of Israel were sacrificing their children to a false god, and God said, "...I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart." May I ask you again, was God lying? According to Calvinism, God decreed Adam to sin. You stated that man has a will. Well, did Adam have a will? His will was not enslaved by sin, but he HAD to sin because God decreed it. Such are the supposed "scriptural foundations" of Calvinism. I hardly think that God, as he walked through the garden and called for Adam, had a grin on His face, saying to Himself, "He did it! He did it!" That, my Calvinist friend, is blasphemy against the Most High. 1 John 2:16, "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is NOT OF THE FATHER, but is OF THE WORLD." James 1:13-14, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." God is not the author of sin. James 3:10-12, "Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh." Based on the argument James sets forth, it would be impossible for God to be both holy and the author of sin. Deuteronomy 32:29, "O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!" I would hardly expect this to be the response of God to things He fatalistically determined to come to pass. Does God predestinate things in which He does not delight in? Calvinism is nothing more than fatalism!!!

    I am not ignorant concerning Calvinism. I was brought up in a Reformed Christian church where my dad was the pastor. Romans 9:20, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" Read verse 22, "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:" God said in Exodus 3:19, "And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand." God knew that Pharoah would not let the children of Israel go unless compelled by a mighty hand to do so. God sending Moses and Aaron unto him only served to harden the heart of Pharaoh and the Egyptians even more. Romans 9:17, "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." The Hebrew translates, "But for this purpose I have let you live to show you my power so that my name may be declared throughout all the earth." The LXX translates, "And for this purpose you were preserved, in order that I, and no other, might demonstrate in you My strength, and so that My Name may be proclaimed far and wide–in all the earth.” The NASB renders Exodus 9:15-17 beautifully: "For if by now I had put forth My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, you would then have been cut off from the earth. But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth. Still you exalt yourself against My people by not letting them go." The Greek word "dietērethes" can also be be translated "carefully kept." God suffered Pharaoh to remain in order to glorify His justice in his destruction. So is the fate of those who reject God. Notice also in Romans 9:22 that God is "longsuffering" to the "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction," for "the Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 1 Samuel 6:6, "Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?" God did not harden their hearts by any positive influence. The word "fitted" in Romans 9:22 is in the Greek middle voice. Man fits himself for destruction. Romans 2:4-5, "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;"

    I am not really that interested in what either Augustine or John Calvin believed because they both came out of the Roman Catholic Church, and that alone is enough to arouse suspicion. I never claimed to be in total agreement with Charles Wesley, but I do believe his conclusion that Calvinism is "worthy of whence it came." You all teach that regeneration precedes faith. Talk about putting the cart before horse!

    [ January 29, 2003, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: IndpndntBptst ]
     
  18. sturgman

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    So the ones the message were given to matters not to the point of the message. I think this is a foolsh asumption. Depending on whom we are speaking to changes the point of the message. I can look at my son and say don't do that, I can say that because he is my son. My directive does not hold true to another.

    No, I do not believe God was lying. I believe that a man has a will, it is enslaved to sin, but it is still his will. I don't believe that I have said differently. maybe your reformed father pastor preached we were robots, but you have never heard that from me.

    You were speaking to a misinformed calvinist.

    Again, man has a will, but not free. You are looking at will as to having to be extreme. It is completely free will, or it is no will at all. Did Adam have a will, yes, was it enslaved to sin, no, was it free, no. Only God's will is free, it is what we call sovereignty.

    I agree with you, if any calvinist says that God walked through the garden doing this, then that is blasphemy, but I am a little offended that you imply this of me when I never said that. I think you knew some too harsh hyper calvinistic people in your youth.

    Your logic is faulty here (not to say that I think God is the author of sin, because I don't, but get some better scripture) James is writing to the believer here about the actions that a true believer should have. James is not teaching a lesson of the theology of God proper. God is not held to righteous standards. God is the riteous standard. Meaning, God cannot sin, because he is God, and all things are judged by him. If God would do it, then He is not sinning. Don't hold God to a bunch of rules. A God in a box may be neat to show to your friends, but he really doesn't stay in them too well.

    God ordained that his son would die to pay for the sin of men. He ordained this before time began. Does your arguement states that God delighted in the death of Christ?
    I am assuming your answer is no. But yet he ordained it. So maybe God does ordain things he does not delight in so that His greater glory might be acheived. My friend, humanistic theology is what is fatalistic.

    I am still trying to decide this. I am not convinced.

    Did you read this verse? And you still are not convinced?

    Go back and read, many times Pharoh told Moses to take his people and Go, and the text reads that "God hardened Pharoh's heart."

    I said this because you eluded to the fact that this doctrine was new to Calvin. It was not new to Calvin, it was the doctrine set forth by Paul, Jesus, Moses, David, and Jude.

    Where in my post do you read that? Don't put words in my mouth. I belive your problem with Calvinism is that you ar misinformed and you think you are not. Regeneration and God granting you faith coinside. They are both the work of God. My responce comes after that, but they my friend happen together. You teach that I muster up enough faith to come to God, then he grants me salvation. Read Romans 3, it cannot happen. If it did then, 1.)salvation would be something I did, even if it is 99% God, and 1% me. 2.) I could do something that God Himself could not do, save me! 3.) When I get to heaven, God must stand and applaud for the great deed I did to come to him, saying "I wasn't sure if you were going to make it, but you did." No my friend. and 4.) I can actively look at someone going to hell on the day of Judement and say if you had been like me, and chose like me, then you would be in heaven, but since you are not, you are in hell.

    I will leave it like Charles Haddon Spurgeon left it. If two men hear the same gospel and one responds and the other doesn't, what made the difference? The man, or God? Of course it is God who made the difference. And that is all I contend, that if there be a difference, it is God who made the difference.
     
  19. IndpndntBptst

    IndpndntBptst
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    In some cases it might. The issue here is that God was rebuking them for saying that they were delivered to do the abominations they committed.

    I apologize if I have misrepresented you or your beliefs, but according to Calvinism, God predestinated all things. If you do not agree with that, you are not a consistent Calvinist.

    I hope so. Do you believe that Adam was created "able to stand, but liable to fall?" The children of Israel sacrificed their children to a false god, but God said, "...I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart." It certainly would have come into His heart if it had been His will for them to do so. God saw the trevail of Jesus' soul and was satisfied (Isaiah 53:11). God did not delight in the death aspect of Calvary, but He did delight in what His Son provided, an atonement.

    I agree, but what was the mechanism? Psalms 105:24-25, "And he increased his people greatly; and made them stronger than their enemies. He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants." God turned their hearts against His servants by increasing His people and making them better than the Egyptians (cf. Exodus 1:8-10). Actually, the statement in Exodus 3:19 was said before God ever said He was going to harden the heart of Pharaoh.

    The early church knew nothing of it. In the writings of Justin Martyr, he stated that the reason God was witholding judgment was because God knew that there was a multitude who would still believe on Him. If the longsuffering of God is only toward the elect, that is not longsuffering. God is longsuffering toward the elect till they repent, what God predestinated them to do anyway? That is like commanding rain out of rain clouds (the elect) and commanding rain out of cloudless skies (the non-elect).

    Again, you disagree with 99% of Calvinists.

    No I do not. Do not put words in my mouth, either. God does grant salvation because no man can save himself. You contruct a system of theology and force it on the Bible instead of using the Bible to contruct a system of theology. Acts 16:31, "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

    believe - active
    be saved - passive

    We believe, and God saves. Luke 8:12, "Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved." I suppose God predestinated that.

    [ January 29, 2003, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: IndpndntBptst ]
     
  20. sturgman

    sturgman
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    QUOTE]I apologize if I have misrepresented you or your beliefs, but according to Calvinism, God predestinated all things. If you do not agree with that, you are not a consistent Calvinist.[/QB][/QUOTE]

    I feel I am a very consistant calvinist. I feel the problem is you have only spoken to hyper calvinist. Mans will is not free, but that does not make us robots. It makes us creations. God being the creator is the only one whose will is free. Most calvinist would have that same viewpoint. Dead man cannot follow Christ, or even come to him, again Romans 3 "There is no one who seeks after God, not one."

    So you admit that God does ordain things that he does not find pleasure in so that he may receive greater joy and pleasure in the end? SO it is true with the cross, it is also true with man. Romans 3:25,26 "He (God) presented him (Christ) as a sacrifice of atonement because sins previously committed were left unpunished, He did this to show his justice at the present time, making Him just and the one who justifies those who believe on him." Romans 9:22, "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory," So what if God prepeared some men for destruction and some for mercy so that He might be praised by both, those who praise his justice (Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that he is lord) and those who praise Him for his mercy. The cross was not Plan B, I really hope you do not believe that. If it was then His plan A failed, and if His plan A failed then how can we really rejoice in our salvation in plan B?

    [/QUOTE]The early church knew nothing of it.[/QB][/QUOTE]

    Then they know nothing of the writings of Paul, Jude, James, and John. And everyone of my Church history teachers have got it wrong, so you really need to come out with a book to show it, because they spent their whole life studying a lie.

    [/QUOTE]If the longsuffering of God is only toward the elect, that is not longsuffering.[/QB][/QUOTE]

    So you decide what longsuffering is? Funny I thought God decided what logsuffering is, as well as grace and mercy. Send a copy of your book to God, He might want to know.

    [/QUOTE] God is longsuffering toward the elect till they repent, what God predestinated them to do anyway? That is like commanding rain out of rain clouds (the elect) and commanding rain out of cloudless skies (the non-elect).[/QB][/QUOTE]

    Yes God predestinated it, now God waits for it to come to fruition. John 10 Jesus told the pharasees that they did not know him because they were not his sheep, then he said that God gave him all that was his, and he would not leave one sheep. That is longsuffering, I am sorry if we do not agree, but anything short of God smiting Adam in the garden is much longsuffering.

    Again, you disagree with 99% of Calvinists.[/QB][/QUOTE]

    Like I said, you know way to many hyper-calvinist. Regeneration of the spirit and God granting me faith is what I have always been taught. What the error is, is when you say that we beleive, THEN God saves us. That is a salvation based upon works. (Romans 11 and if by works then it is no longer by faith.) Even if it is 99.99% God and 0.001% me. If I have to do something for my salvation then it is not grace, because I can look to myself and say "God could not save me without me, we're a great team me and God."

    No I do not. Do not put words in my mouth, either.[/QB][/QUOTE]

    Your words, not mine.
    Dead men cannot believe. Again, not to be redundant but see Romans 3, it is so eliquent.

    Yes, the verse is true your assumptions are not. You take it to mean that any one can believe. Only the elect can believe. read earlier in Acts 13:48 where it says "as many as were appointed to eternal life were saved."

    I guess I am not understanding your question here, because those represent those who have the appearence of coming, yet do not persevere.

    The problem with most arminian thought is that it is man centered. It believe that if God can, then he ought. That is not true. God sits in the heavens and does what pleases him, Psalm 115:3, that is His only duty. To give himself praise and to enjoy himself.
     

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