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Featured The Secret Rapture return of Christ approaches

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Aug 25, 2014.

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  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Putting the verses you mention in more context.

    Deuteronomy 4: 26-31
    26. I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
    27. And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.
    28. And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
    29. But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
    30. When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
    31. [For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;] he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.


    Have you never read Judges, Samuel, Kings. How many times did GOD have to chasten Israel? How many times did Israel serve other gods? How many times did Israel sacrifice their children to other gods?

    As for tribulation the "true Believers" have always undergone tribulation. Jesus Christ tells us: John 16:33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

    You are grasping at straws.

    Jeremiah 30 says that Israel will return from captivity. They did that, at least part of them. So your point is????

    I would simply note that Jeremiah 31:31-34 tells us of the New Covenant instituted by the crucifixion of Jesus Christ through the connivance of the Jews with Rome.!

    31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.




    Consider Matthew 13:30 in context:

    Matthew 13:24-30
    24. Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
    25. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
    26. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
    27. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
    28. He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
    29. But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
    30.Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


    So what is your point?? Perhaps you should read further to the explanation of Jesus Christ of the above parable:

    Matthew 13:36-43
    36. Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
    37. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
    38. The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
    39. The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    40. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    41. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    43. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


    Above we have a wonderful picture of the work of Jesus Christ in the Salvation of the elect. The Good Seed, the redeemed elect are translated into the Kingdom of the Son as shown in Colossians 1:13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    At the end of the world we have a picture of the Resurrection of all the dead both both the righteous, the good seed, and the unrighteous, the tares, followed by the White Throne Judgment.{John 5:28, 29} The righteous shall enter the Kingdom of GOD, the New Heavens and new Earth, the unrighteous with Satan shall be cast into the Lake of Fire.


    I know of no one who says the "true believer" is subject to the wrath of GOD. This is clearly shown in the above passage from Matthew, the redeemed enter the New Heaven and New Earth, the unbeliever is cast into the Lake of Fire as is Satan.

    Not a single word, that means not ONE word, in the above post proves a pre-trib rapture.
     
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Ah ha ha ha Ohhhhhhh yea:laugh:
     
  3. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Darby and Dispensationalism

    Following is an excerpt from JOHN NELSON DARBY AND THE RAPTURE
    by Thomas Ice. http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-JohnNelsonDarbyandth.pdf

    Ice is a dispensational scholar and coauthored with LeHaye the book Charting the End Times. This excerpt deals primarily with Darby's experience while convalescing at his sisters home from a riding accident. A careful reading of the information presented clearly shows that Thomas Ice regards Darby as the father of Dispensationalism. I also believe that a careful reading shows that Darby is claiming more than just an understanding of Scripture but a new revelation from God, particularly of Isaiah 32. It takes either a vivid imagination or an epiphany to get the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture and the doctrine of an eternal difference between the Church and Israel from Isaiah 32. I have posted this information before but apparently few if any read it.

     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Darby and Dispensationalism, continued

    Following is the continuation of an excerpt from JOHN NELSON DARBY AND THE RAPTURE
    by Thomas Ice. http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-JohnNelsonDarbyandth.pdf
     
  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    How does that advance the conversation? Seems pretty insignificant
     
  6. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    Because he asked me.
     
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    OR, Though your last post wasn't as bad as your previous ones, why do you harp on this theme? Why is it even relevant to you?

    Let me ask you this:
    Are you going to denigrate, make fun of, and possibly even slander Dr. John MacArthur simply because he had an accident. And when he was laid up in the hospital recovering from that accident he had the opportunity to do a lot of thinking about the Charismatic Movement. It was during that time that he gathered much of his material and composed his book "Strange Fire."

    That is not unlike Ice's account of John Darby.
    Why not go on and on about MacArthur and denigrate him and make him the object of your scorn. The same thing happened to MacArhur as did to Darby. But you say what you say simply because of your hatred for premillennialism and dispensationalism.

    You attack the man instead of the doctrine. It doesn't earn you any brownie points. It simply makes you look foolish. If you want to defend your doctrine please do so without attacking others.
     
  8. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    I was working one night a few years ago at another hospital. One of the CCU nurses and I were talking about the end times. She was clearly a dispensationalist when she asked me a bunch of questions she answered herself. At the end of them, she asked me,"where did I find this?" In the book "Left Behind" by Tim LaHaye. I left thinking to myself, "she should've used her bible instead of LaHaye."
     
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Let's put this in perspective.
    I remember the different threads that popped up here when Mel Gibson (a Catholic) produced his movie "The Passion of Christ." For all the accurate details of the death of Christ itself it got an "R" rating. Because of his Catholic background there were some things thrown in there that one could not agree with. But overall there was much approval, and many posters said they were going to take their friends (especially unsaved) so they would be exposed to the gospel.
    In reality the gospel is a very simple message. Why not just use the Bible??
    It is simple to turn to a few gospel passages and explain the gospel message to anyone, even a Muslim, J.W., Hindu, Mormon, etc. It doesn't take much effort.

    But to explain one's eschatological view is much more detailed. If one is convinced that they are right about the pre-trib, pre-mil, and dispensational view, is there anything wrong about saying: watch "Left Behind." It will help you to understand our position.

    If you advocate one, why the hypocrisy in not being able to advocate the other, as long as you agree with both positions. At least LaHaye is a believer, whereas Gibson is not.
     
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    That is the point I am trying to make. Classic Dispensationalism came from the mind of John Nelson Darby while he was recovering from a riding accident. I assume he fell from the horse but perhaps it was something else. In any event he credits his doctrine of the pre-trib rapture and the millennial reign to a New Understanding of Isaiah 32. How he came to arrive at his doctrine from that chapter is a mystery. I suggest a revelation {Perhaps a word of knowledge as the charismatic name it and claim it crowd have.} and Darby himself implies as much when he says:
    I believe that it is very strange that the Holy Spirit had been silent for 1800 years about a pre-trib removal of the Church.

    As for Thomas Ice it is obvious that like many others, he has bought hook, line, and sinker, in fact the whole fishing pole, of Darby's dispensational doctrine. That is obvious by checking his web site which I previously referenced: http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/ttcol.html

    One of the most disturbing things about the dispensationalism of many "rapture ready" Christians is their obsession with Israel. I suppose Hagee is the worst of these. Jesus Christ died for the Church. I find no Scripture that says HE died for National Israel!

    In an aside I believe the "Left Behind Fictional Series" are an abomination.
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    By that logic, the Holy Spirit was silent about what the real Gospel was for about 1000 years, from time of Augustian /RCC until the reformation!

    And was isaac watts after that time darby had his "revelation?"

    You are saying NONE saw the Bible in those ways until darby?

    Wouldn't it be more truthful to say NO Reformed did, as how can you when under Covenant theology?
     
  12. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Because MacArthur did not invent pre-trib dispensationalism, Darby did! I have said that Darby fell from a horse and while convalescing at his sisters house he came up with the pre-trib removal of the Church and the concept of two peoples of GOD. I simply base that observation on the writing of dispensational scholar Thomas Ice. If I am denigrating Darby then so is Ice who as I said earlier
    I have never said I hated either dispensationalism or historic {Covenant} premillennialism. Covenant premillennialism has a Biblical view of the Church; pre-trib dispensationalism does not. Therefore, I respect Covenant premillennialism though I believe it to be incorrect regarding the millennium.
     
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    That is utterly false. In fact it is beyond ridiculous.

    Darby is the father of pre-trib dispensationalism, Watts is not!

    Read Thomas Ice and find out for yourself!

    I cannot interpret the above sentence.
     
    #53 OldRegular, Aug 27, 2014
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  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Your words, full of hate, betray you.
    If the topic were about the Charismatic Movement would you denigrate and scorn MacArthur the same way you treat Darby? Yes or No. A simple answer will do.
    This is childish. "Monkey see monkey do." "He did it, therefore I can too."
    If he jumps over a cliff then why don't you follow him?
    Do you believe everything this man says? Really? Is he God?

    Take pre-trib out of the equation.
    Look at pre-mil, dispensational thought. Isaac Watts believed it. The ECF believed it. It was known as Chiliasm.
    There are many dispensationalists today that put the rapture as mid-trib or post-trib. They are still dispensational. They still believe in a rapture. They still believe that the rapture is separate from the resurrection of the unbelievers.
    The ECF believed that way. It is you who believe differently. Your beliefs came along much later; not theirs. Dispensationalism has been around a long time.

    Let's talk about Calvinism the same way you talk about Dispensationalism.
    Do you know that Calvinism was "invented" by a murderer, a reprobrate legalist that appointed the death penalty on those that did not obey his government in the church-state that he imposed in Geneva. He was nothing but a murderer, and that is whose religion you follow. It is not Biblical, but that of a murderer.
    If only Calvin had never lived we would not have Calvinism and the Reformed movement today.

    That is how you sound when you speak about dispensationalism and Darby. If every time I speak about Calvinism I attack the man, what good does it? It only gets others angry. It does no good at all. But you continue your tirade against Darby all to no avail.
    You need to stop.
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Dispensationalists are good at spewing hate to anyone who disagrees with them but I have experienced more hate from you than anyone!

    MacArthur is not a charismatic.Perhaps you should read his book Charismatic Chaos.

    Are you talking about Ice or Darby. Is Darby God? You follow his teaching!

    I think both are wrong just as I do all dispensationalists. God deals with mankind through Covenants and GOD has always dealt with mankind through His Grace. That is what Scripture teaches. He is now dealing with mankind through the New Covenant first prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31f, restated in Hebrews 8:8f, and instituted by the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross, through the connivance of the Jews with Rome.
    As I have stated on many occasions pre-tribulation removal of the Church is not the major problem with dispensationalism. The major problem is their false notion of a "parenthesis Church", the Church for which Jesus Christ died, as an interruption in GOD's program for Israel.

    Isaac Watts did not believe in a "parenthesis Church. I have already shown that!
    That is false! Chialism is not dispensationalism!

    They are all wrong. As long as anyone believes that the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, is a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for Israel they are wrong and that is the truth.
    Darby is the father of pre-trib dispensationalism. Darby is the father of the two separate peoples of God. Darby was wrong!

    Say what you want about Calvinism. I am not a Calvinist. I do believe the Biblical Doctrines of Sovereign Grace but GOD is the author of those.

    Say what you want to about Calvin, I could care less. Now some on the BB may take exception but that is up to them. I have not attacked Darby unless calling him the father of pre-trib dispensationalism is considered pejorative.
     
    #55 OldRegular, Aug 27, 2014
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  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I have no problem with you calling him the father of pre-trib dispensationalism, though I will disagree with you.
    What I have a problem with is you attacking his character to arrive at that conclusion.

    It goes like this: "If only Darby had not fallen off his horse and hit his head senseless then we would not have pre-trib dispensationalism."
    You have put it that way in the past.
    It is a ridiculous attack on his character.
    It is the same way that MacArthur would be attacked by you if you were to be consistent, and Calvin perhaps should be attacked as well.
    Why? To arrive at your conclusions you are attacking the person and not, either defending your doctrine or explaining why the other doctrine is wrong. You don't have to mention names. Stick to the Word of God. Can you do that?
     
  17. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    That's a false characterization as plenty of people agreed with Dispensationalism before Darby they just did not have a fancy word for the system. I would suggest Old Regular to read up and cite accurate facts. The Moody Handbook of theology refutes his remarks.
     
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I agree. That, in part, is why I object to his posts.
    But I object even more to the mischaracterization of the person.
     
  19. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    Well at least he appears humble enough to read books and do research, quite unlike a former poster whom was recently banned and refused to read anything, but was set on a crusade of attacking certain types of christians.
     
  20. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Learn the difference between correction and hate brother. Dispensationalism did not come from anyone riding a horse and falling on his head. That is a slanderous mischaracterization no matter which way you look at it. Put it behind you.
    I never said he was a Charismatic. I suggest you read his book "Strange Fire," which he wrote from a hospital bed while recovering from an accident. (strangely the same circumstances as Darby came to his conclusions about dispensationalism). Maybe that's how God speaks to people--when they are forced to be quiet; when he takes all the "business" out of their lives. Have you considered that?
    Actually I don't follow Darby. I have never read his commentaries. I simply go to bat for those that you slander. No one here has received any revelation by falling on their head as you claim. Why do you like to slander people? This is the problem I am addressing (at least one of them).
    I don't agree with Ice; I know that. And I don't agree with you.
    But what I disagree with most is your treatment of a person.
    It as if you are saying:
    "If only Darby had never lived, dispensationalism would never exist," which is pure nonsense. It is not true. You are attacking the person to establish your doctrine. It doesn't work.
    How many people here have ever admitted to you that they believe in a "parenthesis church"? Please give a number. I want an answer from you. I never said I believed in that. I haven't read of anyone to admitting to believing that. That is your claim, without foundation.
    And so??
    That does not mean he is not a dispensationalist.
    He is and you know it. In fact sources say that his outlay of dispensationalism is much closer to Scofield's than Darby's was. If Scofield did get his information from anyone it would have been Isaac Watts, not Darby. They are that close.
    Chiliasm is Millennialism.
    It certainly is not amillennialism. They believe in a Millennial Kingdom. That is one dispensation. How many other dispensations do they believe in? They vary one from another. Dispensations are periods of time through which God works with man at different times and in different ways. They believed that. It is essentially what Heb.1:2 says.
    Who said anything about a "parenthesis church" on this board, except you?
    How about accepting the fact that you are wrong and the Bible is right. The Bible came before Darby.
     
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