Featured The Secret Rapture return of Christ approaches

Yeshua1 · Aug 28, 2014

So none in the Church held to a pre Mil view on Second Coming until he had his horse accident then?

evangelist6589 · Aug 28, 2014

Yeshua1 said: ↑

So none in the Church held to a pre Mil view on Second Coming until he had his horse accident then?
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False. Plenty before Darby held to these doctrines.

OldRegular · Aug 28, 2014

DHK said: ↑

How about accepting the fact that you are wrong and the Bible is right. The Bible came before Darby.
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I present below the Scripture I have posted previously on this thread; Scripture that neither you or anyone else addressed, because you cannot!

From Post #4

OldRegular said: ↑

Well it is closer than when HE ascended about 2000 years ago and closer than when Darby fell often his horse and had an epiphany; but it will not be secret and it will not be silent:

1st Thessalonians 4:16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Matthew 24:30, 31
30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1st Corinthians 15:51-57
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Revelations 6:12-17
12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 11:15-19
15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 19:11-21
11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18. That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

When Jesus Christ returns every person who ever lived will know it! Notice the sound of the trumpet. GOD tells us through the Apostles John and Paul that it will be the seventh and last trumpet.
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From Post #19

OldRegular said: ↑

That is a pipe dream and I really don't understand why you people cannot simply understand what Scripture clearly teaches.

You have to throw away Matthew 21:43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

You have to throw away John 5: 28, 29. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You have to throw away John 6:39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And

John 6:40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And

John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And

John 6:54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

And

John 11:24. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

And

John 12:48. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The verses John 6:39 through John 12:48 clearly show that the resurrection of the believer and the judgment of the unbeliever occur at the same time. That cannot be honestly disputed.

You have to throw away Acts 24:15. And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

You have to throw away 1 Corinthians 15:20-26. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

You have already thrown away 1 Peter 3:22. Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

And all because of a fictitious pre-trib rapture invented out of "whole cloth" by one John Nelson Darby while he was recovering from a fall off a horse. There is absolutely no basis in Scripture for such and no one on this Board has yet produced one. It does not exist!
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Continued in the following post!

OldRegular · Aug 28, 2014

Continued from preceding post #63!

DHK said: ↑

How about accepting the fact that you are wrong and the Bible is right. The Bible came before Darby.
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I present below the Scripture I have posted previously on this thread; Scripture that neither you or anyone else addressed, because you cannot!

From Post#31

OldRegular said: ↑

John 14:1-3 says nothing about the pre-trib rapture. That is simply a promise from the Lord Jesus Christ that I expect id fulfilled thousands of times each day.

John 14:1-4
1. Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1st Thessalonians 4:13-16 certainly does not prove any pre-trib rapture and it also proves your OP to be wrong. This passage is simply to inform the Saints at Thessalonica that the resurrection has not occurred yet. It was a message of comfort to the worriers! {verse 18} The message is that when the resurrection does occur the dead Saints will be raised with a glorified body before the living Saints do. Nothing is said about the unbelievers because it is doubtful they believed in a resurrection of the body!

1st Thessalonians 4:13-18
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

And as most dispensationalists you totally splinter Daniels prophecy, particularly the 70th week which happened about 2000 years ago!
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From Post #41 responding to evangelist6589

OldRegular said: ↑

Putting the verses you mention in more context.

Deuteronomy 4: 26-31
26. I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
27. And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.
28. And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
29. But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30. When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31. [For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;] he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

Have you never read Judges, Samuel, Kings. How many times did GOD have to chasten Israel? How many times did Israel serve other gods? How many times did Israel sacrifice their children to other gods?

As for tribulation the "true Believers" have always undergone tribulation. Jesus Christ tells us: John 16:33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

You are grasping at straws.

Jeremiah 30 says that Israel will return from captivity. They did that, at least part of them. So your point is????

I would simply note that Jeremiah 31:31-34 tells us of the New Covenant instituted by the crucifixion of Jesus Christ through the connivance of the Jews with Rome.!

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Consider Matthew 13:30 in context:

Matthew 13:24-30
24. Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28. He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29. But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30.Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So what is your point?? Perhaps you should read further to the explanation of Jesus Christ of the above parable:

Matthew 13:36-43
36. Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38. The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39. The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Above we have a wonderful picture of the work of Jesus Christ in the Salvation of the elect. The Good Seed, the redeemed elect are translated into the Kingdom of the Son as shown in Colossians 1:13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

At the end of the world we have a picture of the Resurrection of all the dead both both the righteous, the good seed, and the unrighteous, the tares, followed by the White Throne Judgment.{John 5:28, 29} The righteous shall enter the Kingdom of GOD, the New Heavens and new Earth, the unrighteous with Satan shall be cast into the Lake of Fire.

I know of no one who says the "true believer" is subject to the wrath of GOD. This is clearly shown in the above passage from Matthew, the redeemed enter the New Heaven and New Earth, the unbeliever is cast into the Lake of Fire as is Satan.

Not a single word, that means not ONE word, in the above post proves a pre-trib rapture.
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************************

Now responding finally to your remark I initially quoted!

DHK said: ↑

How about accepting the fact that you are wrong and the Bible is right. The Bible came before Darby.
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The hypocrisy of the above statement on a “Christian” Forum is sickening. I have posted numerous Scripture on this thread and not a single passage has been refuted. There has been not a response of any kind. Instead DHK you have spent your time trying to slime me!

I agree that the Bible is correct. Furthermore the Bible takes precedence over everything, even John Nelson Darby. The Bible says absolutely nothing about a pre-trib removal of the Church. The Bible says absolutely nothing about two peoples of GOD; an earthly people, Israel; and a heavenly people, the Church. No Scripture can be presented that justifies either of these doctrines regardless of what Darby says about Isaiah 32. Rather these doctrines are the inventions of Darby, promoted and explained by such men as Scofield, Chafer, Ryrie. It appears to me that you dispensationalists choose the teaching of these men over GOD and the Bible.

Hubert Baker

DHK · Aug 28, 2014

Originally Posted by DHK View Post
How about accepting the fact that you are wrong and the Bible is right. The Bible came before Darby.
Click to expand...

I present below the Scripture I have posted previously on this thread; Scripture that neither you or anyone else addressed, because you cannot!
Click to expand...

Click to expand...

First, I have cut this from the bottom of you post and put it here:

And all because of a fictitious pre-trib rapture invented out of "whole cloth" by one John Nelson Darby while he was recovering from a fall off a horse. There is absolutely no basis in Scripture for such and no one on this Board has yet produced one. It does not exist!
Click to expand...

IMO, it renders just about everything you have said here invalid and useless information. If your premise is defamation of character. I don't care to read it.
Apologize! Cease and desist. I am not going any further. Any further posting with this kind of trash will result in an infraction.

From Post #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldRegular View Post
Well it is closer than when HE ascended about 2000 years ago and closer than when Darby fell often his horse and had an epiphany; but it will not be secret and it will not be silent:

1st Thessalonians 4:16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Matthew 24:30, 31
30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1st Corinthians 15:51-57
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Revelations 6:12-17
12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 11:15-19
15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 19:11-21
11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18. That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

When Jesus Christ returns every person who ever lived will know it! Notice the sound of the trumpet. GOD tells us through the Apostles John and Paul that it will be the seventh and last trumpet.
From Post #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldRegular View Post
That is a pipe dream and I really don't understand why you people cannot simply understand what Scripture clearly teaches.

You have to throw away Matthew 21:43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

You have to throw away John 5: 28, 29. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You have to throw away John 6:39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And

John 6:40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And

John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And

John 6:54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

And

John 11:24. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

And

John 12:48. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The verses John 6:39 through John 12:48 clearly show that the resurrection of the believer and the judgment of the unbeliever occur at the same time. That cannot be honestly disputed.

You have to throw away Acts 24:15. And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

You have to throw away 1 Corinthians 15:20-26. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

You have already thrown away 1 Peter 3:22. Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
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RLBosley · Aug 28, 2014

A debate between OR and DHK regarding dispensationalism!?! Shocker...

As Greektim said earlier; its not much of a secret if there are so many signs heralding the rapture.

And again, the go to passage for the so called secret rapture is possibly one of the noisiest verses in scripture:

1Th 4:16 NASB - For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

I remember being told that all that will occur at the rapture, but only the Christians will hear it... :BangHead:

So much for a literal interpretation.

OldRegular · Aug 28, 2014

......................................

RLBosley · Aug 28, 2014

OldRegular said: ↑

But don't forget: planes falling out of the sky, cars without drivers, trains without engineers, ships without Captain or crew and on and on! Terrible was it not?
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Oh yes, it's a great story. Just not biblical.

OldRegular · Aug 28, 2014

Originally Posted by DHK
How about accepting the fact that you are wrong and the Bible is right. The Bible came before Darby.
Click to expand...

DHK said: ↑

First, I have cut this from the bottom of you post and put it here:

And all because of a fictitious pre-trib rapture invented out of "whole cloth" by one John Nelson Darby while he was recovering from a fall off a horse. There is absolutely no basis in Scripture for such and no one on this Board has yet produced one. It does not exist!
Click to expand...

IMO, it renders just about everything you have said here invalid and useless information. If your premise is defamation of character. I don't care to read it.
Apologize! Cease and desist. I am not going any further. Any further posting with this kind of trash will result in an infraction.
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DHK
I could not apologize if I wanted to do so. John Nelson Darby is dead and his remains are still in the grave! Jesus Christ is the First Resurrection and only resurrection to date!

I posted 86 verses of Scripture [posts 63 & 64] between the two statements by you quoted above and your only response to that Scripture is: "IMO, it renders just about everything you have said here invalid and useless information."

I noted in my last post #64:

OldRegular said: ↑

I agree that the Bible is correct. Furthermore the Bible takes precedence over everything, even John Nelson Darby. The Bible says absolutely nothing about a pre-trib removal of the Church. The Bible says absolutely nothing about two peoples of GOD: an earthly people, Israel; and a heavenly people, the Church. No Scripture can be presented that justifies either of these doctrines regardless of what Darby says about Isaiah 32. Rather these doctrines are the inventions of Darby, promoted and explained by such men as Scofield, Chafer, Ryrie. It appears to me that you dispensationalists choose the teaching of these men over GOD and the Bible.

Hubert Baker
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DHK, You have proven my last remarks correct! You simply ignore Scripture!

DHK · Aug 28, 2014

RLBosley said: ↑

A debate between OR and DHK regarding dispensationalism!?! Shocker...

As Greektim said earlier; its not much of a secret if there are so many signs heralding the rapture.

And again, the go to passage for the so called secret rapture is possibly one of the noisiest verses in scripture:

1Th 4:16 NASB - For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

I remember being told that all that will occur at the rapture, but only the Christians will hear it... :BangHead:

So much for a literal interpretation.
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1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

A trump of God is mentioned here. It doesn't say which trump, though in First Corinthians it may say "last trump," that still doesn't identify it with any definite parameters. Certainly in the Book of Revelation there are seven trumpets that the angels have. They usher in judgments of God, not the rapture. We have no information exactly when or what this "trump" is, and would be wise not to speculate on it.
However, that does not take away from the literalness of the interpretation.

RLBosley · Aug 28, 2014

DHK said: ↑

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

A trump of God is mentioned here. It doesn't say which trump, though in First Corinthians it may say "last trump," that still doesn't identify it with any definite parameters. Certainly in the Book of Revelation there are seven trumpets that the angels have. They usher in judgments of God, not the rapture. We have no information exactly when or what this "trump" is, and would be wise not to speculate on it.
However, that does not take away from the literalness of the interpretation.
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Where in my post did I at all reference the timing of the trumpet?

I was just pointing out the irony that this passage is used to support a so called-secret rapture, when the text makes reference to at least two, if not three, sources of loud noise.

DHK · Aug 28, 2014

OldRegular said: ↑

DHK
I could not apologize if I wanted to do so. John Nelson Darby is dead and his remains are still in the grave!
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Does that give you liberty to post falsehoods?

I posted 86 verses of Scripture [posts 63 & 64] between the two statements by you quoted above and your only response to that Scripture is: "IMO, it renders just about everything you have said here invalid and useless information."
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Yes, Scriptures based on a hate-filled invective are not worth reading.
Muslims will read Scriptures too. They also have a different premise.

DHK, You have proven my last remarks correct! You simply ignore Scripture!
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Your post #64 which you referred to:

posted by OR
And all because of a fictitious pre-trib rapture invented out of "whole cloth" by one John Nelson Darby while he was recovering from a fall off a horse. There is absolutely no basis in Scripture for such and no one on this Board has yet produced one. It does not exist!
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posted by DHK
IMO, it renders just about everything you have said here invalid and useless information. If your premise is defamation of character. I don't care to read it.
Apologize! Cease and desist. I am not going any further. Any further posting with this kind of trash will result in an infraction.
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If you would like me to respond to the scripture you post stop posting the trash you write about Darby.

DHK · Aug 28, 2014

RLBosley said: ↑

Where in my post did I at all reference the timing of the trumpet?

I was just pointing out the irony that this passage is used to support a so called-secret rapture, when the text makes reference to at least two, if not three, sources of loud noise.
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So it does. But it doesn't say that they will all be heard on earth. I don't believe they will be. The description given in 1Cor.15 seems to contradict that. It will take place "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye..."
That is too fast to hear anything. The events your speaking of are no doubt somewhat anticipatory in heaven, as the rapture itself is very sudden.

AresMan · Aug 28, 2014

evangelist6589 said: ↑

The Secret Rapture return of Christ approaches
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Oh, you mean THIS "secret rapture"?

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Yup! "Sounds" pretty "secret" to me!

I know, I know, "only Christians will hear the shouts and trumpets" and all that, right?

RLBosley · Aug 28, 2014

DHK said: ↑

So it does. But it doesn't say that they will all be heard on earth. I don't believe they will be. The description given in 1Cor.15 seems to contradict that. It will take place "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye..."
That is too fast to hear anything. The events your speaking of are no doubt somewhat anticipatory in heaven, as the rapture itself is very sudden.
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The event that occurs in the twinkling of an eye is the transformation of the body, from corruptible to incorruptible, not the rapture itself (our gathering to Christ) or the duration of the trumpet.

I have no idea what you are trying to say in your last sentence.

beameup · Aug 28, 2014

The "last trump" is the last in a series of shofar blasts during the Feast of Trumpets, and is the loudest and longest.
So, in this respect, the Harpazo will be signaled; and the catching-up of people into the clouds will be a sign to Israel.

DHK · Aug 28, 2014

RLBosley said: ↑

The event that occurs in the twinkling of an eye is the transformation of the body, from corruptible to incorruptible, not the rapture itself (our gathering to Christ) or the duration of the trumpet.

I have no idea what you are trying to say in your last sentence.
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The events of 1Thes.4:15-18 and 1Cor.15:50-54 (esp. 52) are the same. The rapture and the resurrection of the believer take place at the same time. But it is an instantaneous event. It takes place so quickly (in the twinkling of an eye), that the "sounds" mentioned become irrelevant. We'll be gone before we have a chance to hear them.

RLBosley · Aug 28, 2014

DHK said: ↑

The events of 1Thes.4:15-18 and 1Cor.15:50-54 (esp. 52) are the same. The rapture and the resurrection of the believer take place at the same time. But it is an instantaneous event. It takes place so quickly (in the twinkling of an eye), that the "sounds" mentioned become irrelevant. We'll be gone before we have a chance to hear them.
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Yes the passages speak of the same event - the rapture. But specifically what 1 Cor 15 speaks of occurring in the twinkling of an eye is the transformation of the body not the rapture itself. Now could the rapture be that fast? Sure. In fact I think it's likely, but it's not necessary.

It's even less necessary, unlikely even IMO, to say that the entirety of events surrounding the rapture (Christ's descent, the shout, the trumpet) all occur in the same lightning fast instant. So there is no reason to think that the trumpet blast or the shout will occur so fast that no one can hear it.

Also, if it's so fast no one can hear it, then what's the point? Isn't the purpose of the trumpet and the shout to announce his return to gather the elect? If nobody hears it, then it seems strange to even mention them.

OldRegular · Aug 29, 2014

DHK said: ↑

Does that give you liberty to post falsehoods?

Yes, Scriptures based on a hate-filled invective are not worth reading.
Muslims will read Scriptures too. They also have a different premise.
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How can Scripture, the word of Holy GOD, be based on hate-filled invective; and how can any Scripture not be worth reading? The Apostle Paul writes:

2nd Timothy 3:16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The more you say DHK the more you show your contempt for the Word of GOD! Scripyure also has a few words of wisdom for such as you, DHK!

Isaiah 30:9. That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:

Hosea 4:6. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Mark 7:6-9
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

DHK said: ↑

If you would like me to respond to the scripture you post stop posting the trash you write about Darby.
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It is really, i mean really, strange that you are so defensive about Darby when you claim that he was not the "grand puba" of dispensationalism and that you had never read anything he wrote.

I posted the truth about Darby and the truth about dispensationalism. You can call it trash if you so choose. I simply posted what Dr. Thomas Ice said about Darby though I did describe pre-trib dispensationalism in less than admiring words.

Ice said that Darby invented pre-trib dispensationalism doctrine, with two peoples of GOD, while "convalesing" from a fall off a horse. I posted Ice's remarks with links!

That pre-trib dispensationalism of Darby, promoted and explained by such men as Scofield, Chafer, Ryrie, and Walvoord, is a false doctrine that cannot be supported by Scripture. Neither you or anyone else has attempted to do so, rather you make stupid innuendoes about me, wanting to question my salvation but haven't the nerve! But then that is not a new experience for one who questions pre-trib dispensationalism on this Forum!:wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey:

evangelist6589 · Aug 29, 2014

AresMan said: ↑

Oh, you mean THIS "secret rapture"?

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Yup! "Sounds" pretty "secret" to me!

I know, I know, "only Christians will hear the shouts and trumpets" and all that, right?
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Regardless of our differences in eschatology I looked at your book online and it looks interesting. John MacArthur also did an exhaustive look at the subject of tithing in his book "Whose Money is it anyways?" which can persuade anyone with an open mind and willing to look at the scripture in context that tithing is unbiblical. Churches that command people to tithe and or make those that don't feel like they are in sin, should be ashamed of doing so to those on low incomes, or living in costly areas and on a meager salary. But they justify their binding people with guilt whom do not tithe, that they need the money. We all need money. I no longer always tithe, but give cheerfully to the Lord.

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