"the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by beameup, Jun 5, 2015.

  1. beameup

    beameup
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    Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jeremiah 31:31-34

    Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
    If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever.
    Jer 31:35-36
    Hmmmmmm, I am almost daily reminded that Israel is a Nation. I believe that they celebrated their 60th Anniversary. I believe they have the 4th largest military and are surrounded by enemies.

    Hebrews 8:8-10
    Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
    Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
    For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


    Looks like God is about to do something dramatic with the Nation of Israel.
     
  2. Van

    Van
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    I am dubious of assertions based on blood line, i.e. only those who can trace their lineage back to Abraham. Jesus taught against this fallacy, i.e. you must be born anew. Paul taught (Galatians 3) that all born anew believers are children of Abraham.

    What is so difficult about this truth?
     
  3. OldRegular

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    It isn't difficult and it is correct. however, it doesn't comport with dispensational mythology. Jesus Christ told the Jews:

    Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    That Judgment has never been revoked and never will be. The destruction of the Temple in 70AD simply reinforced that judgment!
     
  4. beameup

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    And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Asher were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. Revelation 7:4-8

    And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. Rev 14:1
    And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. Rev 14:3

    God knows them and they can trace their DNA all the way back.
     
  5. OldRegular

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    What happened to Dan? What happened to Ephraim? Applying a literal interoperation to the Book of Revelation is not smart to say the least!
     
  6. DHK

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    It is not up to man to find them or worry about them. We trust the Lord to keep his promises to Israel instead of man to allegorize them away.
     
  7. SovereignGrace

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    This is getting close to Replacement Theology.
     
  8. wpe3bql

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    Or maybe even (shudder) Landmarkism.
     
  9. SovereignGrace

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    I do not want to be too hasty to judge. It just comes across to me as Replacement Theology.


    I see the church as coming out, expanding from Israel.
     
  10. beameup

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    I believe that if you check throughout the Bible, the "twelve tribes" have several differing listings, according to God's plan and providence.
    You will have to "search out the mind of God" on that one.

    The latest consensus among Israeli religious leaders is that the Temple (or Tabernacle) can be set-up before Messiah returns.
    Also, remember that the Tabernacle was set-up in the City of David, which is firmly in Israeli hands (as opposed to the "temple mount").
    The Cohen (priests) have been trained, their clothing made, the implements of the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place have been created, etc.
     
    #10 beameup, Jun 6, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 6, 2015
  11. wpe3bql

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    Then again, it might also have to do with how you define "church," viz. universal, local, local-only, local-only/"chain-link" in origin, etc.

    (Not wanting to labor this point, but there are some who would make this to be "a test of fellowship.")
     
  12. SovereignGrace

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    Wasn't the Hebrew word 'ekklesia' used that was translated 'church' in English? That's what I'm thinking.

    Israel was used to bring Jesus to fulfill the works of the cross. The church is an extension of that church, Israel, a 'called out assembly'.
     
  13. wpe3bql

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    (I'm sure you probably meant to say "Greek" rather than "Hebrew" in your post since ekklesia is a Greek word.)

    Since I'm by no means a NT Greek scholar, I'll defer to Dr. Spiros Zodhiates. In his The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament [(c) 1992, AMG International] he mentions for ekklesia (Strong's # 1577), "....In the NT, the word is applied to the congregation of the people of Israel (Acts 7:38). On the other hand, of the two terms used in the OT, sunagoge (4864) seems to have been used to designate the people from Israel in distinction from all other nations (Acts 13:43 [cf. Matt. 4:23; 6:2; James 2:2; Rev. 2:9, 3:9]). In Heb. 10:25, however, when the gathering of Christians is referred to, it is not called sunagoge, but episunagoge (1997), with the prep. epi (1909), upon translated 'the assembling ... together.'" (page 541)

    I hope this helps somewhat.

    I'll leave the rest of this Bible linguistics discussion to the BB scholars.
     
  14. OldRegular

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    The nation Israel, particularly the tribe of Judah, was used by GOD to bring Jesus Christ into the world. When the Jews conspired with the Romans to murder Jesus their Messiah their work in God's purpose of Redemption was finished.

    There was within National Israel a spiritual or "true" Israel.{Romans 9:6f}. The Church for which Jesus Christ died is a continuation of that "true" Israel. The parable of the olive tree is a vivid example of that truth.
     
  15. Van

    Van
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    First, lets make clear you are referring to "traditional dispensational mythology" rather than "progressive dispensationalism" which is a spot on view of scripture.

    Second, lets consider your verse, Matthew 21:43. Here is a more word for word (i.e. taken mostly from an interlinear) translation:
    "Because of this I am saying to you that from you the kingdom of God shall be taken away and shall be given to the people producing the fruits of her."

    "Because of this" refers to verse 42 where the OT foretold that Jesus would be rejected. So the kingdom of God is taken from those rejecting Jesus and given to those producing the fruits of the kingdom of God. That would be born anew believers, indwelt with the Holy Spirit, because they are the only one able to produce fruits (John 15:5). And this group of people are both Jews and Gentiles!
     
  16. DHK

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    ekklesia is a Greek word and never refers to "National Israel."
    There is no such thing as "The Church," as ekklesia, the word translated "church" always refers to a local church. The word means, "assembly," or "congregation," and can never be used to refer to an invisible or universal church concept, a concept unknown in the first century.

    "The Church" was not a continuation of Israel (true or false). That concept is not taught by Paul or any other person in the NT. Paul established churches. He established over 100 churches on 3 missionary journeys. Every epistle he wrote was either to a local church or a pastor of a local church. There is no denomination in the Bible, no universal church in the Bible, nothing at all that could be construed as "The Church," only "churches."
     
  17. OldRegular

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    Progressive dispensationalists are moving toward the truth. Not quite there yet but certainly a welcome change. they had sense enough to stop digging and start climbing!

    QUOTE=Van;2231029]Second, lets consider your verse, Matthew 21:43. Here is a more word for word (i.e. taken mostly from an interlinear) translation:
    "Because of this I am saying to you that from you the kingdom of God shall be taken away and shall be given to the people producing the fruits of her."

    "Because of this" refers to verse 42 where the OT foretold that Jesus would be rejected. So the kingdom of God is taken from those rejecting Jesus and given to those producing the fruits of the kingdom of God. That would be born anew believers, indwelt with the Holy Spirit, because they are the only one able to produce fruits (John 15:5). And this group of people are both Jews and Gentiles![/QUOTE]

    I have no problem with that! The born again believers constitute the Church!
     
  18. Van

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    Born anew believers are "His people," the "House of Judah," and the "House of Israel," for we (those born anew) are all Abraham's children.
     
    #18 Van, Jun 6, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 6, 2015
  19. wpe3bql

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    One of the papers I've subscribed to for years, The Berea Baptist Banner ( www.bereabaptistchurch.org ). It's a monthly, 24-page "half-sized" paper that often has some rather thought provoking articles--especially in its two "Forums."

    The June 5, 2015 issue has a Forum in which four Baptist pastors write about "replacement theology."

    Be advised that as a whole this paper is definitely a pro "sovereign grace" and Baptist "church truth" mouthpiece. I can't say that I would be in 110+% agreement with every item I've ever read in it, but at least it'll challenge your viewpoint(s).
     
  20. OldRegular

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    The Church is a continuation of Spiritual Israel/ That is what Paul teaches in his parable of the olive tree! Replacement theology is, in my opinion, an invention of the pre-tribbers to defend their false doctrine.
     

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