The Shepherd's Successful Search: His Sheep!

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Jun 8, 2012.

  1. asterisktom

    asterisktom
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    The Shepherd's Successful Search: His Sheep!

    Two verses:
    For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost.
    (Luke 19:10)

    Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ
    Jesus came into the world to save sinners---of whom I am the worst (1 Timothy1:15).

    Both of these verses are more familiar than known. It is those verses we are familiar with (i.e. we think we know) that often prove most elusive when it comes to learning from. Many read that first verse as if it merely said "Christ came to seek the lost".


    But the verse says more than that. It teaches a doctrine that is actually fairly unpopular among some modern Christians. It teaches that Christ came to save the lost, not just seek them. That means that the first coming of Christ, culminating here on what he did on the Cross, had the announced purpose of saving certain people. It was a mission accomplished!

    That is, on the cross Christ died to actually give salvation to the lost, not just make salvation possible for the lost.

    "Why that's heresy, Tom! You are saying that everyone will be saved!"


    No, I am only saying that those designated as "lost" here will be saved. In the same way that "world" does not always mean "world", so here the "lost" does not mean "all of those who are not saved".


    But notice what the two verse do not say (nor does any verse in the Bible): They do not say that Christ's death made salvation possible - that "possible" is the assumption of modern theologians. It is actually a limitation of the power of the Atonement.

    The Biblical teaching is that those who are saved at the cross (and there is no other place to be saved - Acts 4:12) will be saved to the uttermost (Heb. 7:25). That is the true Atonement teaching that really satisfies and comforts. He who started our salvation in
    us will perfect it until the Day of Christ Jesus. The teaching of the hand-wringing I did-all-I-can-do Jesus is a contrivance of more recent times.

    No wonder that this sovereignless Jesus does not command respect or awe. No wonder that the modern church has to think up gimmicks and entertainments to trick the unchurched inside their walls to lend an ear for five minutes to this forlorn jesus.
     
  2. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    All men are lost, all men are unrighteous, all men do not seek God. Why? Because they are lost. Those who believe they are found and don't believe the state they are in. Jesus didn't come for them, only those who believe in God and that is our glorious message of hope, to bad for those who can't spread a measage of hope to the lost.
     
    #2 psalms109:31, Jun 8, 2012
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  3. OldRegular

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    As usual Tom an excellent and thought provoking post!
     
  4. Herald

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    Tom, too bad there's not a "like" button.
     
  5. Iconoclast

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    Ezekiel 34 when read and understood with jn 10 is the topping on this cake:thumbs::thumbs: It is clear and irrefutable.
    While all men are dead in sin......it is only the elect sheep who are lost and found... Those found will believe....but they are not found because they would believe apart from Jesus seeking and saving them...

     
  6. percho

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    Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

    What about was said above by Jesus brought this response from the hearers?

    19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
     
  7. asterisktom

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    I guess I am not clear on the thrust of your question. However I believe the that main reason for the disciples' - and the people's - thinking the kingdom was near was brought about by Jesus' nearness to Jerusalem ("because he was nigh to Jerusalem"). Anticipation was building. Even in Acts they asked "Will you at this time restore the kingdom?"

    The connection between the preceding parable and the following one "the nobleman going to receive a kingdom" was, I believe, Christ making a balance, qualifying the teaching of the first parable with the second.
     
  8. asterisktom

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    Thanks, Tom and Herald. I seem to be overlooking posts again.
     
  9. asterisktom

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    Thanks, Icon, for this suggestion. I am going to have to look into this again. I think I already have some notes on this connection in my Bible margins.

    If I ever lose my old Bible I will be very sad. I have so many penciled notes in the margin, some of which become articles. Other notes I erase, thinking "What was I thinking?!"
     
  10. percho

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    Well I'm thinking that they associated what was lost to the children of Israel who were scattered therefore; Ezek 37:21,22 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

    They thought he was immediately going to do that above, therefore the following parable.
     
  11. percho

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    I agree with Icon on this and also I believe the prodigal son parable is about the sheep Israel, the prodigal and the sheep Judah the own of, he came unto his own and his own received him not.

    John 7:35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?
     
  12. convicted1

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    Matt. 26:48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.

    49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.

    50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him.




    Matt 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

    12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

    13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



    Greek word for "friend": ἑταῖρος hetairos


    1) a comrade, mate, partner

    2) in kindly address

    a) friend, (my good friend)


    Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

    23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

    25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.



    Greek word for "son": τέκνον teknon

    1) offspring, children

    a) child

    1) a male child, a son

    b) metaph.

    1) the name transferred to that intimate and reciprocal relationship formed between men by the bonds of love, friendship, trust, just as between parents and children

    2) in affectionate address, such as patrons, helpers, teachers and the like employ: my child

    3) in the NT, pupils or disciples are called children of their teachers, because the latter by their instruction nourish the minds of their pupils and mould their characters

    4) children of God: in the OT of "the people of Israel" as especially dear to God, in the NT, in Paul's writings, all who are led by the Spirit of God and thus closely related to God

    5) children of the devil: those who in thought and action are prompted by the devil, and so reflect his character

    c) metaph.

    1) of anything who depends upon it, is possessed by a desire or affection for it, is addicted to it

    2) one who is liable to any fate

    a) thus children of a city: it citizens and inhabitants

    3) the votaries of wisdom, those souls who have, as it were, been nurtured and moulded by wisdom

    4) cursed children, exposed to a curse and doomed to God's wrath or penalty



    Now, I have shown where three times someone who has died lost has been spoken to in positive terms such as "friend" or "son". One was a parable of the man who was at the wedding supper w/o the wedding garment, and the king called him "friend". Jesus called Judas Iscariot "friend" eventhough he had already betrayed Him. Even the rich young ruler who walked away, it states that Jesus loved him. So to state that Jesus died for only so many, when the Word proclaims His love to all mankind is quite :confused: to me.
     
  13. Grasshopper

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    Tom, take the next step:

    Matthew 15:24
    But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Give me your thoughts here.:godisgood:
     
  14. kyredneck

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    I'm not Tom, but, 'they are not all Israel, that are of Israel' immediately comes to mind.

    Also, as 'The Prophet', I don't think Christ had anything for those outside of the Mosaic covenant, His duty was to Jews only.
     
  15. psalms109:31

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    Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

    25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

    27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

    29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

    33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

    37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[Psalm 118:26]”

    It all depends how you use the hyperbole, you can either say it is their attitude or they are created that way, which i do not physically see men as sheep, but i do see them with attitude of sheep. You can tell His sheep by what they do, hear is voice and follow Him.

    God by His word can turn a stone into His children, and by His word can turn a dog like me begging at His table into His child. He still calling Jerusalem out of the wilderness to practice justice, mercy and faithfulness.


    1 Thessalonians 2:
    13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]

    2 Corinthians 3 :
    14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
     
    #15 psalms109:31, Jun 12, 2012
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  16. asterisktom

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    I have no problem with saying that Christ's Messianic mission was to the lost sheep of Israel, but to the subset of Israel that were Jews inwardly. "True Israelites in whom there is no guile".

    And I would then see the entity "Israel" extended when God manifestly and in large numbers had granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. The fact that Paul could write to a half-Gentile what he did in my 2nd verse in the OP (1 Timothy1:15 ) shows that the tent pegs of Isaiah 54:2 had now been enlarged. Japheth, as long ago prophesied, dwelling in the tents of Shem. Early dwellers in that tent are, besides Timothy, also the Ethiopan Eunuch, Cornelius, and many more.

    So, yes, Christ was sent only to the Jews. He himself said that to the Syro-Phoenician. Yet He foresaw, of course, that His disciples would do "greater works" - greater in geographical scope.

    But it could be that I am entirely missing your point. If so, launch another question my way.
     
    #16 asterisktom, Jun 12, 2012
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  17. kyredneck

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    You 'wrote my mind'. :)
     
  18. Luke2427

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    Good stuff, Tom.

    Our "non-cal" brethren do not, in my opinion, think through the implications of their unlimited atonement.

    The ultimate implication is that Jesus is LARGELY FAILING his mission.

    They see this verse as saying "Jesus came to seek and to save all of the lost sinners on earth who ever lived. Every single person."

    By that measure, Jesus is failing miserably.

    That's the sad implications of this "non-cal" understanding of the mission of Christ.
     
  19. percho

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    All help me out.

    Abel and Cain, either, one or both sheep?

    Lamech the man with two wives Ch 4 Gen and Enoch ch 5, either, one or both sheep?

    Noah and let's say one million people on earth, how many were sheep?
    What about Ham? Was Ham a sheep?

    Abram and let's say one million people on the earth, how many were sheep?
    What about righteous Lot? Sheep? Take under also consideration that is ch 11 Hebrews there is a connection between Abraham, Faith and looking for a city. The only cities we are aware of that Abraham was aware of were the cities of the plain. What happened when they went their separate ways? Why was Lot righteous?
    Son Ishmael, sheep?
    Son Isaac, sheep?
    What about Eliezer his servant, (Lazarus), sheep?

    Why are sheep, sheep?

    Does being a sheep have anything to do with good and evil, or election?
     
    #19 percho, Jun 12, 2012
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  20. Iconoclast

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    Being a sheep has to do with God's election before time, not any good or evil.

    7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

    8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

    10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
     

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