The Shroud of Turin

Idols can be anything - money, sex, success, power - you name it. The pursuit of worldly posessions come between God and man, and are thus, an impedement. However, what if that "stuff wihitin the catholic church..." actually brings one closer to God? They would no longer come between that individual and God would they?

Come on Trotter, you know very well there is scriptural backing for every one of those as I'm sure you've had to address them before. It is simply your interpretation and your opinion that "Every one of those [Catholic thingies] are wrong and detract from that which we are to have with our Heavenly Father." Why is your interpretation or opinion of “…what we are to have with our Heavenly Father” less infallible than Lori's, or mine, or someone in a Baptist church down the road from you? After all, you (and others here) are presenting your opinions/beliefs as imbued with some kind of sacred authority as if delivered to you from on high. This is sanctimonious pap in the extreme!

† Peace †

 

Bingo! And how do you know that the focal point of that Mass (or whatever it was) was NOT God as well? Many here are assuming that is wasn't. Again that doesn't make it so.

 

Precisely - it's all about intent! Now, who knows the state of your heart better than God - is it me a complete stranger? What if I were to flat out accuse you of idolatry for bowing at your hubby's ordination? Would that matter to you? No - because you know that the opposite is true as does God. God and God ALONE knows if one is worshiping a piece of wood or not. I think people here often presume too much power and authority with such accusations.

† Peace †

 

This is truly an amazing statement.

I adore my saintly dead grandmother. By that logic if I kiss her picture I'm an idolater. What about my wife - I adore her - if I kiss her hand I am an idolater. So, intent matters not, hmmm.?

I'm looking for a little intellectual honesty.

† Peace †

 

I think that you probably know by now that I don't hold to Sola Scriptura.

 

Actually, I've read the entire diary of Egeria and her description of how the 4th century Church in Jerusalem worshiped throughout the liturgical and - yes - I do believe they were worshipping God. This should be a wake-up call to those of you who are bashing the Catholic liturgy.

† Peace †

 

Not for me.

Yes - the Canon of the New Testament!

No - because, in my scenarios at least, that is NOT what is taking place. The honor goes to the person not the object. When you recite the pledge of allegiance do you place your hand over your heart - if so, what does that gesture imply?

† Peace †

 

His argument will be that the Canon of the NT is based on Apostolic Tradition. That in the exception of 2 verses all references to scripture in the NT refers to the Old testiment and specifically the LXX. So the NT is scripture in that it is Apostolic tradition. However, it is reliant on tradition already in placed. Though Canon wasn't defined until the 400 we can determine a tradition of "canonisity" based on the accepted practice of all churches to be inclusive what books were considered authoritative for the NT. That is my guess anyway.

 

Here's what you said...

The last time I looked the canon of the New Testament was NOT in scripture. So from whence did it come? Who told you which books where inspired and should be included in the canon? It sure wasn't scripture.

I'm asking you where God is telling us that we cannot do this IF it is not idol worship? How is the pledge of allegiance different? Are you not showing our founding fathers and those who have died in defense of liberty veneration and honor?

 

Come on annsni - you are better than that.

 

Yes I believe in God. I believe in God by faith. It doesn't take science to believe in God. And that is the argument against evolution. There are limitations to science. One of them is that science cannot enter into the realm of the supernatural or it ceases to be science. It cannot deal with the origin of the universe. If it does it ceases to be science and has entered into the field of faith. It takes more faith to believe this world was created via a big bang than it was through a loving caring Almighty God.

I don't have to prove that God exists.
However the atheist must prove that God doesn't exist. To do so he cannot. One cannot prove a universal negative.

I can believe what ever I want. I can assert my belief.
If you want to disprove my believe then the onus is on you to prove me wrong. Therefore to prove Calvin wrong you must come up with the proof. However ridiculous Calvin's statement may seem to you, if you can't prove him wrong his statement stands.