The 'Sign of Salvation' and OSAS

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Jul 29, 2006.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP: There are some on the list that no doubt believe in OSAS and at least some of them have made mention of circumcision in the OT being the ‘sign of salvation.’ How can these things be reconciled? In Hebrews 8 we read that some continued not in the covenant and God as a result regarded them not. If OSAS is true, and these spoken of were circumcised and had the sign of salvation, yet ‘continued not,’ (showing they were indeed once on the right path,) in the covenant they had made with God to the point that God had no regard for them, how does this not effectively refute OSAS?
     
  2. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    I view this verse similar to how Adam Clarke does...

    The Hebrew words will bear a translation much nearer to the Septuagint and the apostle than our translation intimates. The words might be literally rendered, And I was Lord over them, or I lorded or ruled over them; i.e., I chastised them for their transgressions, and punished them for their iniquities;
    ημελησα, I took no farther care of them, and gave them up into the hands of their enemies, and so they were carried away into captivity. This pretty nearly reconciles the Hebrew and the Greek, as it shows the act of God in reference to them is nearly the same when the proper meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words is considered.

    The same word translated "regarded" in the translation you used, would be more accurate as "neglect", as is used in Hebrews 2:3
    how will we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was first spoken by the Lord and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him.

    I don't believe the verse you posted is a proof text that man can lose their salvation, but gave up His own to the enemy.
     
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Circumcision was the sign of the covenant, not salvation. One could participate in the covenant without being saved.

    OSAS is the doctrine of Scripture that Jesus taught. It has nothing to do with the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants which are what circumcision dealt with.
     
  4. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP:IYO is baptism a sign to the NT believers as was circumcision to the OT believers? What, if any, do you see as the connection between the two?
     
  5. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0

    HP: Forgive me but I cannot follow you here. Can you further clarify your statement? Thanks.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ok here is proof that every now and then - I also agree with Pastor Larry!
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    None.

    Believers in the OT had to go by the formula in Romans 10 just like we do. Believe, confess, -- "resulting in salvation".

    Heb 4:1 "The Gospel was preached to US just as it WAS to THEM also"

    The real question for OSAS is the forgiveness revoked example pre-cross Matt 18, and cast out of the vine of Christ and burned in John 15....

    combined with ALSO cast out of the vine LIKE the JEWS in Romans 11 IF you do not persevere in faith "for if He did not SPARE THEM neither will he SPARE you". They fell due to their UNBELIEF and you stand only by your FAITH.

    Yet - HE is able to "graft them in again"

    Here we see the continuation of the same OT and NT principle.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP: Although there is certainly some agreement with both Pasor Larry, BR, and myself, I have some questions that need to be answered. While I wait on the response of Pastor Larry, I would ask BR to explain to us how one can be part of a covenantal relationship with God yet not have an assurance of a right relationship with God resulting in a state of salvation, even if simply a probationary state as ours. I am not stating my position, just asking for clarification on the statements BR has made.

    If in fact taking part in the covenant relationship by circumcision was indeed not the 'sign of salvation' as some have claimed, what did in fact it acccomplish and what was it a sign of and for whom did it cover for? Is there any rightful connection between circumcision and baptism? If not, why not, and if so, what is it?
     
    #8 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jul 30, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 30, 2006
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    At Sinai God setup a "Nation Church" not the "persecuted church" of the NT. In that model - the Hebrews were selected as "the nation" that would model true religion that would serve as "a nation of priests" to the other nations.

    Being a member of the nation did not mean you were saved - it meant that you would receive the national promises of realestate, blessing and prosperity. It meant that you were also in close relationship to the one true God and had access to the writings of God "the Oracles of God" Rom 3:1-4.

    IN that state you could ALSO choose to be a born-again saved new-creation as did David, Samuel, Elijah, Elisha, Moses, Joshuah, John the baptizer etc.
     
  10. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP: Well stated. Being part of this covenant allowed for special privileges and opportunities not afforded in like manner to others. We that come from Christian homes are afforded like opportunities as well at least in a sense. The fact that my parents were Christian does not mean automatically that I am or even will be, but rather that I will be afforded opportunity and support that so many have not had.

    I know that you had stated that you saw NO connection between water baptism and circumcision, but writing to the list I felt by asking this over it might inspire some that think there is a connection to join in.
     
  11. mojoala

    mojoala
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2006
    Messages:
    438
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jesus' Teaching on Losing Salvation

    Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.


    Matt. 7:21 - all those who say "Lord, Lord" on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.

    Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for "therefore" is "dia toutos" which means "through this") blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus' grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.

    Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God's banquet, but was cast out.

    Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.

    Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.

    Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as "alive again."

    John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.

    John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don't bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.

    John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.

    John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won't cast out. But it's a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.

    John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.

    John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person "continues" to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.

    John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father "draws" him. This "drawing" is an ongoing process.

    John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, "no one shall snatch them out of my hands," He does not mean we can't leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.

    Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).

    Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.

    Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.

    Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.

    Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.

    Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.
    Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God's holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.
     

Share This Page

Loading...