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The sign of the son of man

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by lastday, Aug 24, 2010.

  1. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    Lastday

    RAdam,
    You are just right when attributing "this generation" to the Jews who
    rejected Christ at His first coming but will be "forgiven" at His return!

    You are right in applying "this generation" to the remnant of Jews at
    Christ's SC when "all men know the Lord from the least to greatest"!!

    Preterists can't apply this principle to the sheep and goat nations if
    Jesus teaches sheep nations are saved by works, not by faith...nor
    if goat nations are sent to Hell for their works, not a lack of faith!!!

    For the Preterists don't believe in a Millennial time of testing mankind
    and inheriting the eternal Kingdom by properly treating His brothers in
    the flesh! Nor can they explain why the goat nations are sent to Hell
    based on their mistreatment of the least of His brethren in the flesh!!
    The earthly Kingdom will be populated forever by the Sheep Nations!!!
    Mel
     
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    The Romans 2:12 passage is for those who have never heard the law in audible words (however most of the world knows of the "10 commandments"), nevertheless they shall be judged by the law.

    Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

    e.g.
    Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.​

    Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.​

    Those who have not heard the law will neverthess incur the guilt of breaking the law. This is evidenced by the fact that it is natural that no one wants someone else to kill them, to have their spouse, have their goods stolen, be lied to, deceived, etc...​

    This component of the law is written in the human heart:​

    Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.​


    Therefore all the whole world will be made guilty before God as the infractions of their life are manifested having done these things to others that they didn't want done to themselves.​

    1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.​


    HankD​
     
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Hank, brother, this [self defining] passage defines 'the world' (kosmos) as 'them who are under the law'. Paul is using kosmos here to mean this kosmos:

    Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing.
    Jn 18:20
     
  4. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    Lastday

    Kyredneck,
    You quote HankD:
    Then you comment:
    Jesus has not finished speaking to this world (kosmos) about God's "Unsearchable Judgments and Unfathomable Ways"...nor will He be finished until 144,000 Firstfruit among the 12 Tribes (except for Dan) are added to the Bride of the Lamb; not until the final Remnant of the descendants of Israel in the flesh have been rescued from the fires of His coming wrath! This will occur after both Gentiles and Jews have been shown to be "disobedient" and He once again shows mercy to Israel and Judah!! But He will also show mercy to the forgotten descendants of Ishmael's 12 tribes; for "God has shut up all (peoples) in disobedience that He might show MERCY to all...Oh the depth of the riches of both the wisdom and knowledge of God"!!! Rom.11:25-36.
    Mel
     
  5. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    The phrase "the days of the Son of man" refers back to the former topic, the second coming of Jesus Christ. He didn't say, "so shall it be when the Son of man is rejected of this generation," or "so shall it be for this generation." He said, "so shall it be in the days of the Son of man."

    By the way, the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was not like the days of Noah or Lot.
     
  6. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    I didn't apply this generation to the Jews at the second coming. I applied it to the Jews that rejected Christ and unto whom wrath came to the uttermost.
     
  7. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    RAdam,
    You write:
    That's exactly why the Preterists and Amillennialist miss His message completely!
    He was not finished with "this generation" in AD 70! He will be finished with "this generation" when He restores a Remnant as His People...a "second time"!! Isa.11:11.
    The view and mercy of Jesus is much, much broader than what our finite minds can grasp!!!
    Mel
     
    #107 lastday, Sep 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2010
  8. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    I don't meant to sound arrogant, but you have such a misunderstanding of the simplest of scriptures that it is saddening.
     
  9. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    RAdam,
    You Write:
    Sorry about that!
    I'm still your brother!!
    We should be respectful!!!
    Mel
     
  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Well Brother Adam, isn't this debate all about exactly what constitutes the 'second coming' of Christ? IMHO, it all hinges and revolves around this particular passage that was addressed to THE JEWISH CHURCH:

    so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation. Heb 9:28

    Folks have it cemented in their minds that there is ONLY TO BE TWO 'comings of Christ', and in no way is that idea cemented in my mind. He did indeed come in judgement on 'that generation' AD 66-70.

    I personally expect the 'next coming of Christ' to be this one:

    ........Christ`s, at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 1 Cor 15:23-25

    The premil dispy believes that Christ at His 'second coming' is going to [finally, at last] set up His kingdom and reign on earth for a thousand years. I don't see this in this passage. At His 'next coming' the [spiritual] kingdom is to be delivered up and then comes the end. Period.

    ???????????

    ......the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom......where also their Lord was crucified. Rev 11:8

    5 They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; They are a perverse and crooked generation.
    20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: For they are a very perverse generation, Children in whom is no faithfulness.
    32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, And of the fields of Gomorrah......... Dt 32 (The Song of Moses)

    27 And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:
    28 for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.
    29 And, as Isaiah hath said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We had become as Sodom, and had been made like unto Gomorrah. Ro 9

    5 .......Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans:
    6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, as ye go forth out of that house or that city, shake off the dust of your feet.
    15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city. Mt 10

    23 And thou, Capernaum, shalt thou be exalted unto heaven? thou shalt go down unto Hades: for if the mighty works had been done in Sodom which were done in thee, it would have remained until this day.
    24 But I say unto you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. Mt 11

    And Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I bear with you? bring him hither to me. Mt 17:17

    29 And when the multitudes were gathering together unto him, he began to say, This generation is an evil generation: it seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah.
    30 For even as Jonah became a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
    31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and shall condemn them: for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
    32 The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, a greater than Jonah is here.
    49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send unto them prophets and apostles; and some of them they shall kill and persecute;
    50 that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
    51 from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zachariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary: yea, I say unto you, it shall be required of this generation. Lu 11

    39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
    40 for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
    41 The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, a greater than Jonah is here.
    42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
    43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.
    44 Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
    45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12
     
  11. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    Throwing a lot of scripture out there doesn't constitute equating the days of Noah and Lot to 70 AD.

    In what way does the Lord use this illustration? Well, He explains that, in each case, the Lord's people were delivered from destruction right before it happened. Noah went on the ark, Lot left Sodom. Then came destruction. Here's the key. In each case destruction came the day that Noah got on the ark and Lot left Sodom.

    I see in the case of 1st century Jerusalem where the faithful disciples saw the sign Jesus gave them and then fled as per His instructions. However, judgement didn't come for another 3 and a half years. When it did come it was not immediate, but a slow siege.

    It does, however, fit the Lord's second coming, you know the one where it was promised that the Lord Himself would descend and every eye would see Him. In that day, what is described as happening? Well, the Lord brings those that sleep in Christ with Him and raises them first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be changed and shall meet the Lord in the air. The Lord will destroy the wicked, burn up this earth, and remake it in righteousness. Then, the holy city descends from God out of heaven to the new earth, adorned as a bride for her husband. Ok, you've got God pulling His people out and then, at that same time frame, bringing judgement.
     
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Agree! Where do you see that I disagreed with what you've written above? The fact is there is some wonderful types/allegories in these 'exodus stories' as it pertains to His people of 'that genearation' and in all the ages, IMO.

    You boldly literalize where I will not. Concerning many of these things you've said I will remain a pan-millenialist. It'll pan out the way it's supposed to.
     
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ......and what would you have said had I not provided scripture? :)

    Mainstream evangelical Christianity here in the Bible belt USA woefully, grossly misses the significance given in the scriptures to 'that generation'.
     
    #113 kyredneck, Sep 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2010
  14. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    Boldly literalize? What, clear and straightforward language from the epistles?

    The problem, in my view, is a downplaying of the difference in styles employed by the various books of the bible. The epistles employ a different style than the OT prophecy or the book of Revelation. Those two use highly symbolic language, which isn't to say we should wildly spiritualize what we read in those places. The epistles weren't written in the same way. When Paul said the Lord himself would descend with a shout, with the voice of the arc angel, and with the trump of God, I believe he means the Lord Jesus will literally and physically descend from heaven and be accompanied by a shout, the voice of the arc angel, and the trump of God. I believe He will literally bring the saints in heaven with Him, raise them first, then change we which remain, because that is what Paul said. I'll take him at his word. He wasn't writing symbolically or figuratively. He was saying what would really happen and I'll simply accept it. That's not boldly literalizing, that's taking the bible for what it says when it is clear and straightforward.

    One must discern the difference between reading a passage in 1 Thess. 4 and Revelation 20 or Isaiah 65.
     
  15. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    I agree. The significance of 70 AD is underappreciated. As a result many errors abound and much is missed. That, however, doesn't justify overstating its significance or seeing 70 AD everywhere in scripture and prophecy. Both are extremes in my view, and as usual the bible is somewhere in between.
     
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Yes or no. Are you implying that I have 'wildly spirtualized'? If so, specify exactly where and how.
     
    #116 kyredneck, Sep 10, 2010
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  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    I don't see '70 AD everywhere in the scripture', and I'm beginning to resent the snide implications. I do however recognize the IMMENSE significance that God Himself puts on 'the putting away' of the Old Covenant. He did not do that lightly. In fact, He made Himself flesh and allowed those of the Old Covenant to kill Him. By the death of Him that made the testament, it was made void.
     
    #117 kyredneck, Sep 10, 2010
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  18. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    No, I didn't mean it that way. Meant that symbolic language doesn't give an excuse for wild spiritualization, such as is rampant in some circles.
     
  19. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    Yes, it is an important subject. That doesn't mean that we are to take 2 Peter 3 and treat it as if it were written in Ezekiel or Revelation.
     
  20. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    Lastday

    RAdam and Kyredneck,

    IMO, you tragically miss the Big Picture given by Paul in Romans 11:25-36!
    According to RAdam:
    According to Kyredneck:
    Of course the Old Covenant went out of effect...but not in AD 70!
    The Old Covenant ended at the Cross and the Church knew this!!
    But Israel according to the flesh still thinks the Old is in effect!!!

    To Get the Big Picture we must concede that God "remembers" Israel/Judah!
    They suffer "days of vengeance" until the Body/Bride of Christ is completed!!
    Then God will "remember Israel's sins no more and choose them a 2nd Time"!!!
    Mel
     
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