the sin nature

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by donnA, Feb 4, 2006.

  1. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    Aren't we born with the sin nature? It isn't something we develope after birth, based on what, our upbringing, our surroundings? It is our nature as humans to sin. What goes against our nature is not to sin. And I know theres been so heavy discussion here in the past over whether christians continue to sin after salvation. Such as old sins revisited, stuff you struggle with, that stuff that sneaks up on you and there you go, you've sinned, that old stuff you stuill have to pray about for strength to resist temptation. I mean after all we wouldn't have temptations at all if we didn't still sin sometimes.
    I say all this to ask,
    So why are we surprised when non believers sin? We were all born with the sin nature.
    I'm thinking specifically of homosexuality. People born with the sin nature, sinning. What a surprise.
     
  2. blackbird

    blackbird
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11,898
    Likes Received:
    2
    It doesn't surprise me when a non believer sins---what surprises me is when believers continue in sin after point salvation as if nothing has changed---as if old things didn't "pass away"---Believers who call themselves---name them themselves with the name of Jesus---continue on with no appearance of change---when the Bible speaks clearly otherwise

    "Let him who stole---steal no more!"

    And that verse is an application to change that new nature brings---old things pass away--all things become new.

    If the "Bonnie & Clyde's" of this world are told to put on the new nature---and steal no more after their salvation---the same holds true for homosexuals---they are to put on the new nature---at point salvation---let him who is homosexual be homosexual no more.

    Bro. David
     
  3. Ron Arndt

    Ron Arndt
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2005
    Messages:
    238
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think more people are surprised when leading Christians sin, rather than those who aren't Christians. So many Christians wonder how Jimmy Swaggart could have been in a motel room with a whore? How two married women could have been having sex with Rev Paulk in his mega church in Atlanta GA. for years? How sweet and wonderful Jim and Tammy Faye Baker could have bilked millions of dollars from people through their ministry and Jim Baker committing adultery with Jessica Hahn his secretary?

    It's because Christians just like the UN saved. They are STILL sinners to. Just because we become Christians doesn't mean we are now free from sin and it;s temptations. We STILL can sin just as much as we did before, if we so choose to. As long as we are in these fleshly bodies, we have the sin nature within us and we need to be ever mindful of that every day. As John the apostle rightly wrote, "If we say we are without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us".I John 1:8
     
  4. bapmom

    bapmom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    and one thing that comes to mind is....if being saved means we automatically give up every sin we've had a problem with in the past, than why would God need to give us a command to live differently now than we did before?

    I do agree with blackbird, btw, Im just thinking its a change of heart first. We no longer want to do those old things, but perhaps we had no self-discipline instilled within us at an early age, perhaps some of the temptations we face are exacerbated by a physical addiction, and in many cases we just don't realize that some things are wrong until later in our Christian life.
     
  5. Ron Arndt

    Ron Arndt
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2005
    Messages:
    238
    Likes Received:
    0
    bapmom

    I tend to agree with you on that bapmom about age bringing more discernment. Wow, when you are in your 20's you are so much in the flesh, with sex, lack of anger management and good times turning into drinking and foolishness. With age comes maturity and thinking before we leap.I screwed up so much when I was young, it was a wonder I ever did anything right according to what my parents wished. And I know, that's a sad testimony but true.
     
  6. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    5,500
    Likes Received:
    20
    The Bible says absolutely nothing about anyone having a sin nature. It is a doctrine from humanism, not from the Bible. Many theologians, however, have taught that all men do have a sin nature, and some have gone so far to argue that the unregenerate man is totally depraved, but we have many passages in the Bible that refute that belief.

    The belief that the Bible teaches that men have a sin nature comes from a careless reading of a few isolated passages in the Bible taken out of context:

    Psalm 51:5. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

    Psalm 58:3. The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.

    Gen. 5:3. When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.

    Gen. 8:21 The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.

    Job 14:4 "Who can make the clean out of the unclean? No one!

    Job 15:14. "What is man, that he should be pure, Or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
    15. "Behold, He puts no trust in His holy ones, And the heavens are not pure in His sight;
    16. How much less one who is detestable and corrupt, Man, who drinks iniquity like water!

    Isa. 48:8. "You have not heard, you have not known. Even from long ago your ear has not been open, Because I knew that you would deal very treacherously; And you have been called a rebel from birth.

    Rom. 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
    13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
    15. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
    16. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
    17. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
    18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
    19. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
    20. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
    21. so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Eph. 2:1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
    2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
    3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.


    The belief that the Bible teaches that men have a sin nature also comes from a careless study of the word flesh in the New Testament. Up through Rom. 14:20 in the KJV, every occurrence of the word “flesh” is an English translation of the Greek word σαρχ. In Rom. 14:21 it is a translation of the Greek word κρεας meaning “flesh, meat, a piece of meat.” We find this same Greek word translated in the KJV as “flesh” in 1 Cor. 8:13. Every other occurrence of the word “flesh” in the KJV is a translation of the Greek word σαρχ.

    The problem arises when readers assume that the Greek word σαρχ is a pejorative term. Many even equate it with the supposed “sin nature.” However, we find the Greek word σαρχ used of Jesus in Romans 1:3

    3. concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, (NASB, 1995)

    3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; (KJV, 1769)

    A careful study of the Greek word σαρχ in every occurrence of it in the New Testament reveals that the “flesh” is the part of man that is subject to temptation, as opposed to the “Spirit” which, of course, is not subject to temptation. Man, therefore, according to the Bible, has a part of him that is subject to temptation. Jesus, before his death on the cross, shared this part of man with us, and was subject to temptation, but never yielded to it. Christians continue to have this part of man, but just like Jesus no longer had it after his death and resurrection, Christians are to consider themselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. (Rom. 6:11).

    Therefore all men are born with a weakness that makes them subject to temptation. This weakness in the New Testament is referred to as the “flesh.” It is not a disposition to sin, and therefore it is not a sin nature in the sense that many teach it.

    Man did not inherit a sin nature from Adam as a consequence of his fall; the Bible teaches no such thing. (Rom. 5:12 is quoted above, in context, for your convenience.)

    (Note: I omitted the Greek accent marks to make it easier to post the Greek fonts. All Scripture is from the NASB, 1995 unless otherwise stated.)

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    5,500
    Likes Received:
    20
    Great post! Thank you!

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ummm, in Genesis 8:21, God mentions to Noah that every inclination of men's hearts is evil from their youth.

    I don't know what you guys call that, but I call it sin nature! It is the natural inclination to rebel and disobey. When one is born again, one is given a new nature -- one that wants to obey God and work with Him.

    Whatever you call it, we start out preferring evil and end up preferring good if we are born again in the Holy Spirit. There is a change of nature.

    Maybe the phrase 'sin nature' doesn't exist in the Bible, but neither does 'Trinity'.
     
  9. Ron Arndt

    Ron Arndt
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2005
    Messages:
    238
    Likes Received:
    0
    Craig

    You lived all these years on this planet and you still don't know you have a sinful nature within you? Comon Craig, give me a break. Craig, please read Romans chapter 7 with Romans 8.
     
  10. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    5,500
    Likes Received:
    20
    You can call it what ever you want to, but calling a cat a dog doesn’t make the cat a dog!

    Nowhere, absolutely nowhere in the Bible does it say that man is born with a natural inclination to rebel and disobey. Let’s try reading Gen. 8:21 with our reading glasses on our face rather than in our desk drawer.

    8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. (KJV, 1769)

    8:21. The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done. (NASB, 1995)

    Notice, first of all, that “The LORD” did not say “from his birth, but from his youth.” No man is born that way, but according to this verse the heart of young people becomes evil.

    Notice next that “The LORD” says, “never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.” We know for a fact that this statement is not literal but hyperbolic because, according to the Bible, Noah and his family were not destroyed.

    Notice next that this statement, if not interpreted as being hyperbolic, would contradict statements in the Bible regarding Job. For example,

    Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. (KJV, 1769)

    Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil. (NASB, 1995)

    No one is born with an evil disposition, but everyone is born with the “flesh,” the σαρχ, the part of man that causes him to be subject to temptation. And since all young people are bombarded with all sorts of temptations and do not yet have either the experience of adulthood (have you ever had a thirteen year old child!) nor the Holy Spirit to assist them in resisting the temptations, the very large majority of them give into them time and time again until it becomes their natural inclination to do so. But we find in the Bible men who, for one reason or another, either grew out of that natural inclination of their youth or never gave into such a thing. Such men include Abraham and Job, whose natural inclination was to fear and obey God.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, now you have so many verse, but I don't see any that you've listed that say this.
    What your saying is man has a choice (before salvation) to sin or not, and some chose not to, while others just naturally found a way to grow out of it. Kind of says Jesus died for nothing doesn't it, after all,man is able to not sin, and some can even out grow it.
    And ABraham did a real fine job of obeying God didn't he, he twice traded his wife for sheep and goats, to save his own skin, and the first time he had to save his own skin because of mistrust of God by going to egypt thinking God wouldn't take care of Him in the drought in the promised land. Had sex with another woman, created a child outside the will of God (Ishmael not being the child of promise), because he didn't obey and trust God.
    Yep, Abraham is a real prime exampe of someone who either didn't sin, or out grew it.
     
  12. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    5,500
    Likes Received:
    20
    Well, now you have so many verse, but I don't see any that you've listed that say this.
    What your saying is man has a choice (before salvation) to sin or not, and some chose not to, while others just naturally found a way to grow out of it. Kind of says Jesus died for nothing doesn't it, after all,man is able to not sin, and some can even out grow it.
    And ABraham did a real fine job of obeying God didn't he, he twice traded his wife for sheep and goats, to save his own skin, and the first time he had to save his own skin because of mistrust of God by going to egypt thinking God wouldn't take care of Him in the drought in the promised land. Had sex with another woman, created a child outside the will of God (Ishmael not being the child of promise), because he didn't obey and trust God.
    Yep, Abraham is a real prime exampe of someone who either didn't sin, or out grew it.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Very funny, donnA!

    I did not say that Abraham never sinned; I cited him as an example of a man in the Bible who either grew out of the natural inclination of his youth or never gave into such a thing. We find nothing in the Bible to indicate that Abraham inherited a sin nature or that his natural inclination was to sin, but as you yourself have posted, he yielded to temptation on occasion because, like all men, including Jesus, he had the part of him that the New Testament calls the flesh. If the flesh is the sinful nature, Jesus also had the sinful nature because the flesh was part of him as a human being,

    Rom. 1:2. which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,
    3. concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,

    And of course “man has a choice (before salvation) to sin or not to. Do you believe that God tells man not to sin just because He has nothing else to say? Paul wrote of himself, before he was saved,

    Phil. 3:6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

    However, Paul still needed a savior because he sinned in Adam (Rom. 5:12).

    The mere fact that most, if not all, men have in and of themselves sinned does not mean that they were born with a sin nature, and the Bible does not say that they were. What the Bible does teach is that all men have the flesh as part of their being, and they are therefore subject to temptation. Satan does not want for us to obey God; he wants for us to obey him, and he is very good at getting us to do that.

    All that you can show from Scripture is that man has the flesh as part of who he is, and that as a consequence he sins. You cannot show from the Scripture that all men are born with a sin nature—that is a doctrine from humanism, and not from the Bible. See, for example William Golding’s Lord of the Flies. Psychologists and sociologists have been arguing seemingly forever the question as to whether or not man is inherently evil, and all too many Christians have jumped on the bandwagon.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Ron Arndt

    Ron Arndt
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2005
    Messages:
    238
    Likes Received:
    0
    Give it up Craig.LOOK at the world around you. Read the paper.Turn on your TV and watch the news. The crimes, wars, divorces, immoral sex, cursing, debauchery and everything immoral ARE the result of man's inclination TO sin.
     
  14. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    True, Ron, but those things have always been there since the fruit and the serpent. But so have kindness, self sacrifice, loyalty, love, honesty, and care. We have a choice every day to choose what we will let into our hearts. Yet there is no shortage of Christians who will say "look at all the evil in the world", but never give the good a second glance.
     
  15. Shiloh

    Shiloh
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 2, 2002
    Messages:
    937
    Likes Received:
    0
    Craig, your own Scripture you "quote" proves you WRONG. The Lord Jesus did not have a sin nature because we have something He didn't have...an earthly father, Gal.4:4. I'v debated with a few guys like you who are hung up over the "BOOK" you read on "The Myth of the Orginal Sin". If we were born with no sin nature....now listen....would it not be possible for someone over the past 6000 years to have lived without sinning? If so, they could go to heaven....right. That means they would go to heaven without Christ. EVERY cult is started because their doctrine of Christ is messed up. Be careful buddy!
     
  16. Ron Arndt

    Ron Arndt
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2005
    Messages:
    238
    Likes Received:
    0
    Johnv

    Sure, John all men can and do good things at times. That is not what a sin nature means though. It doesn't mean that man is born TOTALLY evil and can not do anything good. Heaven's no!. It means that within our being we have an inclination to want to do sinful things naturally. But we also have a moral conscience that also does good things as well.

    No one of this earth was ever born with a natural propensity do to good ALL THE TIME. That's why Paul says in Romans 3 that all have sinned and there is NONE righteous, no not ONE. Because of the sin nature we all are born with.Psl 51:5
     
  17. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    5,500
    Likes Received:
    20
    ?????????

    The Biblical doctrine of Original Sin is not a myth, and I have never suggested that it is:

    Rom 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
    13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
    15. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
    16. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
    17. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
    18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
    19. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
    20. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
    21. so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (NASB, 1995)

    The Bible says in Rom. 5:12 that “all sinned,” and looking at Rom. 5:12 in context we see that the meaning of those words is that all have sinned in Adam, “for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

    No where, absolutely nowhere in the Bible does it say that all of mankind inherited a sin nature! It is merely a humanistic theory that has been debated for centuries. The Bible simply says that we sinned in Adam and that the penalty for that sin is death, making the death of Jesus Christ on the cross for our sins absolutely necessary for our salvation.


    Galatians 4:4, contrary to your claim, does not say that “The Lord Jesus did not have a sin nature because we have something He didn't have...an earthly father,”

    Gal. 4:4. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
    5. so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

    As all of my readers can see for themselves, Gal. 4:4 does not tell us whether or not Jesus had a sin nature. Indeed, it does not say anything at all about a sin nature or where it might have come from if there is such a thing.

    And Gal. 4:5 should not be interpreted to say that Jesus was born of a woman so that He might redeem those who were under the Law. We know this for a fact because all men are born of a woman. Paul’s point is that God sent forth His Son so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, and that redemption was effectual because Jesus was a human being under the Law, just like us, but He obeyed the Law so that his obedience might be imputed to us for our justification.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Shiloh

    Shiloh
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 2, 2002
    Messages:
    937
    Likes Received:
    0
    Craig [​IMG] ???????????
    IF man was not BORN with a sin nature...where did our sin nature come from? If there is no such thing as a sin nature why does man sin? If man was not born with a nature to sin, could it be possible for some person over the years to live without sinning and thus go to Heaven without Christ? Sorry for the simple questions....I need to go slow to learn this new doctrine of yours.
     
  19. Brother James

    Brother James
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    660
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'd be careful about leaning anything from Craig. He believes in salvation by works, baptismal regeneration as well as the eradication of the old nature.
     
  20. Brother James

    Brother James
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    660
    Likes Received:
    0
    Said the prince of preachers CH Spurgeon, "There are some professing Christians who can speak of themselves in terms of admiration; but, from my inmost heart, I loathe such speeches more and more every day that I live. Those who talk in such a boastful fashion must be constituted very differently from me. While they are congratulating themselves, I have to lie humbly at the foot of Christ's Cross, and marvel that I am saved at all, for I know that I am saved. I have to wonder that I do not believe Christ more, and equally wonder that I am privileged to believe in Him at all-to wonder that I do not love Him more, and equally to wonder that I love Him at all-to wonder that I am not holier, and equally to wonder that I have any desire to be holy at all considering what a polluted debased, depraved nature I find still within my soul, notwithstanding all that divine grace has done in me. If God were ever to allow the fountains of the great deeps of depravity to break up in the best man that lives, he would make as bad a devil as the devil himself is. I care nothing for what these boasters say concerning their own perfections; I feel sure that they do not know themselves, or they could not talk as they often do. There is tinder enough in the saint who is nearest to heaven to kindle another hell if God should but permit a spark to fall upon it. In the very best of men there is an infernal and well-nigh infinite depth of depravity. Some Christians never seem to find this out. I almost wish that they might not do so, for it is a painful discovery for anyone to make; but it has the beneficial effect of making us cease from trusting in ourselves, and causing us to glory only in the Lord
     

Share This Page

Loading...