Featured The sinners prayer & Paul Washer

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Precisely! :applause:

A sinner praying to God for forgiveness is a wonderful thing and should be encouraged.

Where we go off the rails is when the "evangelist" says "If you repeat these words, and really mean them, God will save you!" Then once the near incantation is complete, the evangelist will typically declare, "Now if you said those words, and meant it with all your heart, sincerely, then you are saved. Don't let anyone tell you different." That's a bald faced lie from hell and almost verbatim what I was told (as far as I remember) when I was young and made a profession of faith.

Some will say that this is an exaggeration and doesn't happen. Bull. I've seen it and heard it more times than I can count. I've had enough of it, and I agree with Paul Washer when he said "If there is anything I've declared war on, it's the sinner's prayer."

Can Paul Washer get a bit overbearing? Sure. But I think we would all be better off if we were as passionate for the gospel as he is.

 

Was that supposed to be a compliment? This is what happens when you listen to Paul Washer all the time, he insults fellow believers and convinces them they are lost all over again.

And you are the one who is all confused from reading the many books of men. Put those books down and read the Bible!

 

This is pure hogwash. I have never seen preachers try to talk people into saying a prayer like this. You have been going to the wrong churches. Did they all slap each other in the forehead and say "Be healed!" ?? :laugh:

It ain't that easy to get folks to pray to Jesus and ask him to save them, ask Evangelist how many times he has been able to do that when he street preaches. If you can get somebody on their knees, they most likely mean it.

 

Apparently I'm a prophet...

I guess since you've never seen it, it can't be true?

Get off your high horse and actually admit that you have not seen it all or know it all. I have seen this repeatedly. MANY times. Your Popish declaration of hogwash changes nothing.

Is that the way it always is? No. But I never said it was.

Nonsense. People will repeat a prayer in moments if for no other reason that to get you to go away! Again, I've seen it.

The IFB churches I was a part of would go out, knock on doors and after a 2 minute conversation, get someone to repeat the rote prayer and declare them "gloriously saved!" However, well over 90% of the people would never come to fellowship or worship, with us or any other church. After trying to followup they would avoid us and never be seen again. Is that genuine conversion? Of course not.

It's not just IFB either. My wife saw the same thing at her church before we were married, which was C&MA. About as different from IFB as you can get, same unbiblical focus on the prayer.

You are really living in a dream world if you think that if someone prays a prayer they "most likely mean it."

 

Where pray tell did you see this "more times than you can count"? What denomination is that?

What you are implying is that folks would lead somebody in a prayer without any regard to whether they truly understood the gospel, or truly wanted to pray for salvation. What kind of church was that?

See, this whole thing is just a slam against people who preach what you consider "easy believism". Well, read your Bible, believing is easy. Over 3000 people got saved in one day at Pentacost!

Then you were going to the wrong church. Was this YOUR church?

It may or may not have been genuine. If you were heavy handed with folks (you seem to have been part of the team), then you were doing wrong. But if folks were eager to pray, that is how it should be.

Well, I have seen MANY people pray a prayer and mean it. They start coming to church and become an active member. Some even enter the ministry.

But then, we never twisted anybody's arm.

I remember when I got saved, when the preacher asked if anybody wanted to know how to get saved, I jumped up and almost ran down front. I wanted to get saved, and I wanted to get saved NOW. Nobody had to twist my arm, and when they asked me if I wanted to pray to Jesus to save me, I said yes and meant it with all my heart.

 

I answered that. I was in IFB churches primarily when I saw this, almost every weekend for 4+ years. But it also occurred when I was younger in a SBC church.

Exactly. They give a unbiblical gospel presentation and then close with the prayer. IFB are infamous for this trash. As I said in the repentance thread, I am no David Cloud fan, but he rightly points out this problem among his own IFB peers.

http://www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/fbs_and_quick_prayerism.php

Yes I was. Yes it was.

I have remedied the problem. They actually asked me to leave, but w/e...

The people were almost never eager to pray, except perhaps to get us off their porch. Didn't matter though since if they prayed they were in.

"Meaning it" doesn't matter. You can sincerely "mean it" when you ask to be forgiven, but unless you repent and put your faith in Christ alone it is empty. If you've led people in a prayer and they show fruit of salvation and growth in the Lord, then praise God!

I'm not saying that prayer is always wrong, but what is thought of as "the sinner's prayer" is heavily abused in my experience. It would be best to avoid it.

 

I have also gone door to door, but we never strong-armed folks. We were not looking for numbers, but for people who wanted to be saved.

And what do you mean by an unbiblical gospel presentation?

Because you told them their gospel presentation was unbiblical?

Well, that DOES matter. If they don't want to pray, something is wrong. People in the scriptures, like the publican or the Philipian jailer wanted to be saved very badly.

Nonsense, if you pray and ask Jesus to save you and mean it, you are saved.

What I think this is REALLY all about is LORDSHIP salvation. Tell me, did the publican promise to turn from sin in Luke 18? Did Paul tell the Philipian jailer he had to turn from all his sins to be saved?

I understand completely now.

 

Good. I encourage that. Just don't strong arm people into an unbiblical prayer.

A 2 minute Romans road presentation, focused on "going to Heaven when you die." And lacking the biblical call to repent and believe.

Nope. I was asked to leave because I dared to dissent from dispensationalism.

Agreed.

Strawman. "Lordship salvation" doesn't say you must turn from all sin in order to be saved. If you want to debate someone, try to actually debate against what they believe.

Also, the issue actually is the unbiblical prayer used by many to give a false assurance of salvation, not your or my view of Christ's Lordship.

Doubt it.

 

I have seen the sinner's prayer used in many services in the seeker churches I have been a part of. It is the same words repeated as said in here. The preacher says repeat after me and then pronounces a person saved. This is what Washer is at war against. I do think he is probably getting some truly saved people to question their salvation, but he is also getting many who are lost and think they're saved to come to Christ. In the end more people will be in Heaven by Washer being used by God.

I must add, I don't post in here as much as I used to. I have a new hobby (telescope) that has distracted me for a couple of months. But the rhetoric in here is getting ripe. You guys seem to HATE each other. Can't we all just get along?

 

You see, here is the problem I have, the part of your post I highlighted.

You say Washer is getting some people who are saved to doubt. You also say he is getting some people who are not saved to get saved.

Now, first of all, how do you tell these two groups apart? How do you know that a person who is doubting is saved or not?

And if you can get a person all upset over whether they are saved or not, isn't this evidence that their heart is crying out to be saved in the first place? And don't you think Jesus knows they long and desire to be saved? Do you really believe these persons are lost and Jesus would let them perish?

I have heard preachers that are far tougher than Washer, these guys can get the preacher to doubt he is saved. I don't like preachers like this, although your faith should be able to handle some rough preaching.

Guys like Washer come into a church and convince all these folks who long and desire to be saved to doubt they are saved. They aren't lost, Jesus knows their heart and saved them long ago. But they are weak in the faith and sometimes sin has caused them to doubt their salvation. These folks are ripe picking for guys like Washer. He will tell these folks if they aren't living 100% for Jesus they are on their way to hell. He scares the daylights out of people.

These folks get so full of fear and doubt they run down to get saved, and promise they will never sin again. Washer collects his check and is on his way to the next church to scare folks all over again.

I had a pastor when I was young, he warned me against "evangelists" like this. He said they come into a church and cause all sorts of problems, then leave the pastor to clean up the mess. He was 100% correct.

You can have guys like Washer.

 

Yes there is a major similarity in IFB and CMA theology, particularly regarding soteriology. By saying that they are very different, I meant in appearance, attitude and methodology and some peripheral bits such as the spiritual gifts.

 

Winman, that isn't what I meant to come across. I truly believe Washer is more angry against those who preach an easy believism or as he says, decisionalism if you will. I don't think Washer is that much of an evangelist as he is an apologist. He is making a stand for the church and what it should look like, and against all this Christian light we see today. IMO

If my salvation cannot stand up against scriptural truths then I need to question my salvation, that isn't a bad thing. Every time I hear convicting preaching I go to scripture and have always come away convinced of and more sure of my salvation. So no matter how Washer preaches, if someone is saved then scripture will confirm it. It is a different story for those who are not saved.

The Rick Warren PD disciples, I feel most are probably lost but I really don't know and no one else does either except for God. Washer's message hopefully will get them to think about why they repeated the prayer to see if it was genuine. We have a woman in my Sunday School class who repeated this prayer at a Rick Warren 40 days of purpose campaign. This was years ago. She now admits she was not saved then. She later heard the gospel preached instead of some feel good story from the pulpit and then repented and turned to Christ. I ask you, when was she saved? I'll agree Warren's PD stuff got her to think about salvation but it came up short. That is the problem with all this easy believism, it comes up short of saving anyone.

Thank you Paul Washer!!!

 

The problem I have with Paul Washer is that he asks believers to display a life which he preaches they cannot perform.

As all good Calvinists do, Paul Washer tells a person they cannot regenerate themselves, they cannot change their lives. Then in the very next breath he tells them that they should be changed if they really believed. Now what is a person supposed to do with a message like that?

OK, I can't change myself. I want God to change me, but God isn't changing me, Paul Washer says I am still the wicked sinner I was. What can I do?

Do you see a problem here?

He's big on telling you what's wrong with you, but he offers no solution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTYu0-tx-E4

 

I see no problem at all with that. He doesn't know who the elect are and he preaches to all the same message. If one is convicted and wants to be saved then they will. The lost will not even understand what they are hearing if they are even listening, IMO.

Too many make Calvinism out to be a monster that it really isn't. Everyone wants to say Calvinists tell people who want to be saved they cannot be because they aren't the elect. How can someone want to be saved and not be elect I ask you? It is the definition of saved that is the problem. IMO someone who walks an isle or says the prayer in a PD type service where they just add Jesus to their life just like joining the local Fraternity or club, they miss what being saved is all about. The one who comes as spelled out in scripture with a contrite heart and ready to make Jesus Lord, that is an elect person.

But I do like your avatar of the Whirlpool Galaxy...nice

 

Well, I do see the way he preaches as a problem. He pretty much tells people if they aren't living up to this "standard" he has set up, that they aren't saved. I would bet that 75% of the folks listening to him would believe they have NOT met that standard. Listen to that video, he's condemning people for walking through Vanity Fair (whatever he means by that) with their Xboxes, and TVs, and "your text messaging and everything else you do". That pretty much condemns every young person in America, maybe the world

Now what do they do? The only thing they can do is "works". The problem with works is how much is enough? When am I showing enough evidence to prove I am a real believer? Am I a real believer?

This is nothing but teaching folks they have to do works to be saved. How many? Who knows, but from what Paul Washer has seen, you ain't there yet.

Salvation is a free gift. Jesus said all you have to do is ASK.

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

People love to call praying and asking Jesus to save them "easy believism", but there is nothing easy about it. For most folks believing Jesus will save them if they simply ask him as he said in scripture is the most DIFFICULT thing in the world.