The Sky Is NOT Falling!

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by swaimj, Jul 3, 2003.

  1. swaimj

    swaimj
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have had little time to post on the BB this week but have read quite a few posts. Much has been written on the Supreme Court's striking down Texas' anti-sodomy laws. A few comments:

    First, I wish the court had not struck down the laws. However, striking down these laws has little immediate, practical effect on our nation and culture because the laws were not being enforced anyway. As a conservative (politically, in this case) I think it is a bad idea to have laws and not enforce them. I know of no way to enforce anti-sodomy laws in which the process of discovering who is committing the crime would not do more harm than the crime itself.

    Second, there is probably a coming cumulative effect in the court's action which will lead to the legalization of homosexual marriage. That's a bad idea and Baptists should openly oppose such a move. We will and the legalization will probably take place anyway. Which leads some on the board to pronounce judgement on America and damnation on liberals who approve of homosexuality. It's the end of the world!!!!

    As Baptists, we need to stop pronouncing the end of the world so often. Like the little boy who cried "wolf", it causes people not to take us seriously.

    Think about another issue, the issue of abortion. Damnation has been pronounced on America many times over that issue as well. Yet, the tide is running against abortion in this country. First, medical science is showing over and over again that the three-trimester standard set up by the court is arbitrary and makes for poor science. Second, those who favor abortion have overplayed their hand by being so radical on the issue. Specifically, their opposition to the outlawing of "partial-birth" abortion has exposed them for the radicals they are. Also, there is a real and legitimate movement in this country to grant human rights to a fetus. Should Scott Peterson be convicted of one murder or two? That is a question that is being debated in our culture and those who see the fetus as human life are in a strong position. Our argument resonates with people and pricks their conscience. Little by little, abortion is being regulated in this country because there are sound reasons to regulate it. As this takes place, abortion is ceasing to be an unrestricted right. That does not make the world a perfect place nor does it usher in the Kingdom, but it is progress.

    Back to the topic of homosexual marriage. If/when it is legalized, our nation will be sowing seed that will spring up into a tragic harvest. Children who are adopted into one-sex homes will lack the balance of male-female nurturing which God intended. Many of these children will enter adulthood unable to cope with the realities of life. That is the mild result. Think of the increase in incidents of sexual abuse among children that will occur in the privacy of one-sex homes. Children will grow to adulthood having suffered abuse and will have no context allowing them to recognize what has happened to them.

    Abortion came to acceptance in this country because our culture stopped thinking in a Christian context and decided that it was OK. Christians have continued over the years to criticize abortion, oppose abortion, and argue against it. Our arguments are now having some effect. In the case of homosexual marriage, the situation may get worse before it gets better. However, if we are faithful to provide arguments against it, and if we are willing to minister to its victims in love, we can and we will have an impact on our culture in this area as well.

    So rather than take on a "the sky is falling" mentality, let's keep working, let's keep speaking the truth in love, and let's continue to be salt in the world.
     
  2. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Excellent post, excellent tone. [​IMG]
     
  3. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    Over 80% of all African-American children live in families with one-gender homes (tragically, these are one-parent homes). We should most definitely realize that so, so many more children are being exposed to a one-sex home even now. What is the Christian community doing to help these children? What SHOULD we be doing to help them now?

    Children are unable to cope with the realities of life no matter what their upbringing is. Being raised by a homosexual couple has shown no more negative consequence than those raised by a heterosexual couple.

    In my doctoral marriage and family class of Family Violence, we researched the opposite. Abuse is much lower in homosexual couples than heterosexual couples at large, and MUCH lower than abuse in single-parent households. The data seems to point that it is better for a child to be in a two-parent home where the parents truly love and care for the child than in a two-parent home where they are not taken care of or in a one-parent home.

    I believe that the Christian community does need to do research in these areas. Otherwise, they look foolish when they say one thing, and the facts are otherwise.
     
  4. John Wells

    John Wells
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2001
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Homosexualities, an official publication of The Institute for Sex Research founded by Alfred Kinsey, Alan Bell, and Martin Weinberg, reported that only ten percent of male homosexuals could be termed as "relatively monogamous" or "relatively less promiscuous." Additional findings showed that 60 percent of male homosexuals had more than 250 lifetime sexual partners, and 28 percent of male homosexuals had more than 1,000 lifetime sexual partners. Another startling fact is that 79 percent admitted that more than half of their sexual partners were strangers. -- Alan P. Bell and Martin S. Weinberg, Homosexualities (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1978), 308.

    Notice I document my statistics! :D
     
  5. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,135
    Likes Received:
    320
    RE:
    I noticed no scriptural support for this statement.

    One day it will fall and the Scriptures plainly state that we should be looking for it...


    2 Peter 3
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
    14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

    I agree with your premise in part that we are lights in a dark world, but we shouldn't forget that one day the sky will fall and this world will go up in smoke.

    HankD
     
  6. hsmom3

    hsmom3
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Messages:
    184
    Likes Received:
    0
    I really appreciate this post. I have been utterly terrified reading all the threads. It frightens me to the point that it is a paralyzing fear. I used to listen to a lot of Christian radio talk shows about the doom and gloom of our world, and I finally had to stop listening because it was crippling me as a Christian. I don't know if it's just my emotional makeup, but I know it just wasn't good for me to be consumed with all of it.

    How do we stay informed and still keep our sanity?

    hsmom3
     
  7. Artimaeus

    Artimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2002
    Messages:
    3,133
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, they were. They weren't at the top of the police priority list but, victims were quite often able to have charges brought as a result. Arrests have been made, trials held, and convictions successful.

    With a law, there is a recourse for the victim, without a law there isn't.

    I am openly opposing such a move and one of the ways is to also openly oppose the little steps which lead to that effect. Your first point justifies a little step yet, your second point condemns the cumulative effect. The sky isn't falling but there are storm clouds gathering. Abortion is just another storm cloud, and when enough storm clouds gather you know what happens.

    I applaud your reasonableness and goal of not OVERreacting, yet, I still see the need of some reacting.
     
  8. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/cjv.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    Victims? Sodomy isn't about victims. If you're talking about involuntary acts, those are still illegal.

    Joshua
     
  9. Gina B

    Gina B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    16,944
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hsmom3: Of course we do need to stay informed. It can get very depressing and frustrating at times, but that shouldn't decrease our opposition to sin and the spiritual and even physical protection of ourselves, our children, and our fellow Christians.
    We must focus and have our hope completely in Christ to keep our sanity. Being humans, it's hard not to despair when men disappoint us, but our ultimate goal is not to please men or make ourselves a more comfortable and tolerable life here on earth, Jesus will and does help us when we learn to trust him and the peace he offers.
    But...many Christians don't understand that you don't have to be a "radical" if it goes against how you're made. For example, some people can tolerate looking at abortion pictures and informing themselves completely about it in order to combat it, some people are more sensitive and would be made sick doing it. Those people need to find a "cause" they're better able to tolerate and be more effective in, or focus on a different aspect of it such as passing out information or donating money, clothes, etc..
    Overall, our main focus it to teach Jesus and give hope to all. All of us can do that, even if we can't handle getting into all the details of how far down society has plunged.
    One of these days it will all be over. These things don't need to frighten us too horribly when we know the end result of this earth and the end result of what happens to us personally. SALVATION! [​IMG] And no matter how horrible this world gets, that will never, ever change. Nobody will every conquer God, and nobody can take away our salvation.
    Gina
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Once in a similair discussion i "made up"
    a link:
    www.chickenlittle.com
    Which has one problem, the link can be
    resolved :confused:
     
  11. Artimaeus

    Artimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2002
    Messages:
    3,133
    Likes Received:
    0
    Victim - a sufferer from any destruction, injurious, or adverse action or agency (American College Dictionary)

    And before you jump on "sufferer", I mean it in the sense of:

    Suffer - to be the object of some action (American College Dictionary).

    Sodomy is totally about victims. If there were no victims there would be no problem. Sin always has victims whether they find sin pleasant or not.
     
  12. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    22,028
    Likes Received:
    1
    Amen! Satan is a poor paymaster. When you serve Satan, your reward is eternal damnation and torment.
     
  13. Maverick

    Maverick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2002
    Messages:
    960
    Likes Received:
    0
    The sky fell a long time ago, all we are waiting for is God's judgment to drop onto it.
     
  14. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    swaimjsaid - I know of no way to enforce anti-sodomy laws

    to which Artimaeus replied - With a law, there is a recourse for the victim, without a law there isn't.

    I gotta ask, who's the victim in cases of sodomy, when both are consenting? If my wife sodomizes me, am I a victim? Hardly!!!
     
  15. Artimaeus

    Artimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2002
    Messages:
    3,133
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sodomy - unnatural sexual intercourse, esp. of one man with another or of a human being with an animal.
    (Ameican College Dictionary)

    I know there are laws and states which have added acts which are not supported biblically as unnatural. I am sure there is probably a law somewhere that says "French" kissing is unnatural, or holding hands on a Tuesday is unnatural, but, I am just referring to what the Bible specifically defines as "unnatural", i.e. same-sex and beastiality.

    The victims are those who are deceived into thinking that this is OK, they are victims of their own crimes. Victims are people who have evil inflicted upon them and it makes no difference whether or not it is consensual. The fact that they are too ungodly to recognize this evil is irrrelevant. The victims are those who gave no consent and would now have no recourse to bring charges for this particular crime.
     
  16. swaimj

    swaimj
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    Replies to various comments:

    Scott Emerson:
    I agree that African-Americans suffer greatly because of their matriarchal family structure. During the days of slavery in the US, the black family was systematically and purposefully destroyed. The black family has never, not in 140 years, recovered. The greatest need in the black community is discipleship of black men and women and training in biblical principles of family life. Sadly, the greatest impediment to the recovery of the black family is the current welfare system because it rewards the breakup of black families.

    Apparently this response was the result of misreading my quote. I said that children who are not raised in a two-parent family would be unable to cope with the realities of life when they reach adulthood

    I do not think your research will apply to the situation one generation after the (hypothetical) legalization of homosexual marriage. That change changes the variables and its consequences are unknown. Because scripture teaches that homosexual marriage is wrong, I cannot believe that the consequences which flow from it will be pleasant.

    HankD
    Yes it will fall in the future, but it is not falling now. Furthermore, the passage does not say that Christians are to be watching for the sky to fall, we are to be watching for the creation of a new heaven and a new earth.

    While it is true that in the last days, men will grow worse and worse, God is still at work in the world and his will will be done. There is no reason for Christians to be pessimistic or to engage in doomsaying.

    Artimaus
    Argues that sodomy laws were being enforced.

    Sorry, but I think you are describing rape; sexual assault of one person upon another. That is still against the law. The sodomy laws were against consensual acts. I have to agree with Joshua on this one (and that doesn't happen every day [​IMG] )
     
  17. Artimaeus

    Artimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2002
    Messages:
    3,133
    Likes Received:
    0
    The sodomy laws were against sodomy, whether it was consensual or not. They were enforced a great deal more for non-consensual than for consensual, that is undeniable, but, and this the key to what I was saying, with the law being against sodomy the police COULD and DID bring charges because the act itself was a crime and had society's explicit condemnation. Now that tool is stripped from them and we have society's implicit acceptance of sodomy as, at best, a neutral behavior.
     
  18. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    First of all, my points were on abuse. Second, your information comes from 1978, which is highly, highly outdated.

    Cohabitation is more fragile than marriage, and same-sex couples who do not get along and quarrel violently probably separate even before the thought of having children occurs to them.

    "Moreover, reproducing children is a far more complicated project to carry out among homosexuals than among heterosexuals. It is not something that happens accidentally, for instance. Therefore, it is possible that a process of social selection is at work: Those who decide to have children and are then able to achieve this goal may be a select group of more stable and devoted couples than are average heterosexual couples. Consequently, they would not fall prey to deviances, especially spousal abuse, that could endanger their relationship and their children's well-being." (Ambert, 2003).

    Another quote:

    “Evidence [gleaned from a meta-analysis of 30 studies] shows that children raised in homosexual households showed no differences from other groups, either in sexual orientation or in general mental health or social adjustment,” (Nussbaum, Martha C. “Lesbian and Gay Rights,”)
     

Share This Page

Loading...