The Song of Moses -- Deut. 32

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Helen, Aug 31, 2006.

  1. Helen

    Helen
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    I'm starting a new thread because this one is NOT about the point of intoxication, but rather about whether or not fermented wine, in general, is considered evil and poisonous by the Bible, which we were told repeatedly in the thread on intoxication that it was.

    About midway through the thread I checked with my Concordance to find out when it was considered poisonous like an asp's venom and found only Deuteronomy 32. I mentioned that and no one responded. So, later, I asked when wine was compared to the poison of asps and my response, from one of the moderators, was

    Yes, that was the verse I discussed before. To say that ALL wine is therefore the poison of dragons, or the venom of asps is taking the verse wildly out of context. Who is the 'they' of 'their'?

    Chapter 32 of Deuteronomy is the Song of Moses. So, first of all, it is poetic.

    The Song of Moses is a poetic history of the children of Israel up to that point, of their creation by the Lord Himself. It reviews God's care and kindness and miracles in caring for them and then their reaction in the wilderness: "They have acted corruptly toward him;
    to their shame they are no longer his children,
    but a warped and crooked generation."

    Then, in verse 9:
    "For the Lord's portion is his people,
    Jacob his allotted inheritance."

    By verse 18, we read about Israel:
    "You deserted the Rock, who fathered you;
    you forgot the God who gave you birth."

    Now, let's pick this up in verse 28:

    They [Israel] are a nation without sense,
    there is no discernment in them.
    If only they were wise and would understand this
    and discern what there end will be!
    How could one man chase a thousand,
    or two put ten thouseand to flight,
    unless their Rock had sold them,
    unless the Lord had given them up?

    For their rock is not like our Rock,
    AS EVEN OUR ENEMIES CONCEDE,
    THEIR VINE COMES FROM THE VINE OF SODOM
    AND FROM THE FIELDS OF GOMORRAH.
    THEIR GRAPES ARE FILLED WITH POISON,
    AND THEIR CLUSTERS WITH BITTERNESS.
    THEIR WINE IS THE VENOM OF SERPENTS,
    THE DEADLY POISON OF COBRAS [OR ASPS, DEPENDING ON THE VERSON]."

    Look at that! Their GRAPES are poison! The grapes of the enemies. Before their wine is listed as poison, their very grapes are said to be poisonous and the clusters full of bitterness.

    How can grapes be poisonous? And, if they are, then we should all refrain from both grapes and grape juice, not just wine!

    So the argument that God calls wine poison falls apart here. First of all, He is referring to the wine of the enemy. Second, He is saying even their grapes are poisonous.

    Because this is poetic, we therefore need to look for Bible to explain Bible.

    Thoughout the Bible, in various places, and particularly in Isaiah, we see Israel referred to as the vineyard of the Lord. Jesus also picks up this idiom in His parables. Finally He tells His disciples He is the TRUE vine.

    The fruits of the vineyard of the Lord, and particularly of the True Vine are the results of the actions of the people, as defined in Galatians 5, as empowered and produced by the work of the Holy Spirit in them.

    So what would the poisonous grapes, or fruit be? First of all they would be from idolators, and not just Muslims, although that would be very much included. Look at the opposite to Galatians 5 for what their fruit produces: hate, bitterness, war, impatience, meanness, evil, unfaithfulness, roughness, and no self-control. Here is the poison. And when these are allowed to 'ferment', or age, in a population, the result is truly poison. We can see that in a number of places in the world today.

    This is what we get when we allow Bible to explain Bible.

    Wine, however, is fermented wine -- aged fruit juice if you will (as it ferments naturally). New wine is only slightly fermented. Old wine has finished the fermentation process and has mellowed (or turned to vinegar -- which should also be on the list of poisonous wines if those who think Deut. 32 is talking about actual wine...).

    Fermented wine is what Noah became drunk with. Fermented wine is what we are told all the way through the Bible to be very careful with and not OVER-indulge in.

    At the marriage of Cana, it was definitely fermented wine, for if it had been simply grape juice, there would have been much less of a miracle, if any -- for grape syrup could simply have been poured into the jars of water. Or at least, that could have been the claim of doubters! However the 'best' wine was saved until last, unlike the normal marriage feasts where the best was served first, before the guests became high or drunk.

    If wine were not fermented wine in the Bible, there would be no reason to warn about it. Unless the Bible were warning about diabetes or something...

    At any rate, this business about wine being the 'poison of asps' is taking the verse from Deut. 32 wildly and totally out of context and twisting it to mean something else entirely. Those who want us to believe that all wine is evil and against what God would do are desperate for some kind of Biblical 'evidence' of their point of view. If this is all that can be done, it is clear they have no case at all.

    With all that said, I would like to make my own position very clear: All alcoholic beverages are dangerous in the wrong time, wrong place, wrong amount. As mentioned in the previous thread, no woman in early or mid-pregnancy should have liquor. If you are going to operate machinery of ANY kind, you should be cold sober, and that includes a lack of drugs in your system as well.

    As Gina mentioned before, children do not like the taste of liquor and therefore will not drink it unless it is part of a ritual where a taste is taken, such as Passover. Even then, some people water down the children's portion.

    Because teenage brains are re-wiring during those years, it is important they they, too, stay away from any substance which could hinder what is going on.

    Thus the 'drinking age' in most countries is between 18 and 21. Just like with cars, they are not ready to handle certain things for a number of years. We don't even let a child walk far when he is young, and walking is not evil! Just because something is not good for a child or youngster does not mean it is evil, however.

    So I am talking about non-pregnant adults who are not operating machinery and, as already mentioned before, not taking a prescription which would interact with the alcohol in a bad way.

    For these adults, wine is a gift. One to be taken in moderation, like food, salt, and a number of other good things from the Lord. Yes, God made wine. It is medicinal and part of celebrations and a comforter in times of stress. Noah, a preacher of rightousness, made wine. Due to what may have been a drastic drop in air pressure after the Flood, he got terribly drunk and passed out. However we never hear Noah criticized in the Bible, and we never see a repeat performance from him! Please note that if he had been expecting grape juice, he would have spit out the stuff after the first sip. But the wine was fermented and he expected it to taste the way it did.

    Wine is NOWHERE mentioned as evil in the Bible in and of itself. In the Song of Moses, it is both the grapes and the wine of the enemies of Israel (and therefore of God) which are poisonous and bitter. And if the grapes are also said to be that way, then those who are saying Christ only changed the water into grape juice at Cana or only had grape juice at the Passover are in just as much trouble as though the grape juice were fermented wine.
     
  2. Helen

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    I am bumping this to the top because I think it is being deliberately ignored by those who say that God said wine is poison. This is a biblical refutation of that, which they asked for in another thread.
     
  3. DeeJay

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    You see Helen the problem with your argument is you are useing scripture and useing it in context. That interfears with their man made doctrines.

    I mean how are some people going to feel moraly superior to others with out being able to make rules and condem others for breaking them.
     
  4. DeeJay

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    I would like to borrow a quote from His Blood Spoke My Name, in another thread

     
  5. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    Who is the they in Deuteronomy 32:33? Simple, those in rebellion against God.

    What is the wine they are drinking? Simple, alcohol.

    Wine that makes the heart glad is not alcoholic.
     
  6. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    It is not a Biblical refutation on your behalf as you claim, but rather a silly fleshly attempt to justify the drinking of a beverage that God's Word prohibits in the Christian's life
     
    #6 His Blood Spoke My Name, Aug 31, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2006
  7. Helen

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    We already knew your opinion. You have not even attempted to deal with the Scripture itself or with what the rest of the Bible says. Instead you have fixated on your opinion and, like the evolutionists, are determined to ignore anything contrary to it.
     
  8. DHK

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    I provided the reference Helen, (only in answer to your inquiry), but I personally would not use this reference as one of my arguments against the use of fermented wine or alcohol. It is, as you pointed out, used in poetic language, mostly as a figure speech. To be fair however, I think that the other side would have the same grace and realize that the author of Prov.31:4 is also using a literary device in another poetic book, and that verse cannot be used to justify the drinking of alcohol.
    DHK
     
  9. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    David said twice in the Book of Psalms, My heart is fixed. The Scripture I have given refutes your argument that the Christian is allowed to drink alcoholic beverage. And I have not taken any Scripture out of context.
     

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