The Sovereignty of God

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by pinoybaptist, Jul 14, 2002.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    God is sovereign. He is God of gods, Lord of lords. Arthur W. Pink said it best in his time, and he still does in our time. Here are a few excerpts from his book:
    Part One. I shall continue to post from his book.

    Let them who would create a pseudo-sovereign God answer, if they will.
     
  2. ScottEmerson

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    Can I just add that Pink uses more non sequiter logic than pretty much any writer that I've read?

    For example... He says that to say that God wants all men to be saved...is to show that the Spirit has been defeated.
     
  3. KenH

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    And you know what, Scott, A.W. Pink is absolutely right.

    This book by Pink, The Sovereignty of God, was used aa a tremendous means by God to bring me to repentance and faith. It is the best uninspired book I have ever read. I couldn't wait to get to the next page. I was like a man in the desert who had found an abundance of water. :D

    One redeemed by Christ's blood,

    Ken
    Were it not for grace...

    [ July 14, 2002, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  4. pinoybaptist

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    non-sequitur ? Explain why his logic does not follow his preceding or succeeding logic.
     
  5. pinoybaptist

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    The Sovereignty of God by AW Pink...2nd Installment on Intro...
    Is there anybody in this board who can explain away God and His sovereignty in a not non-sequitur way ?
     
  6. Baptist Believer

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    non-sequitur ? Explain why his logic does not follow his preceding or succeeding logic.</font>[/QUOTE]I'll play...

    Pink and most five-point Calvinists seem to confuse sovereignty with a dictatorship.

    Why is it so far out of your imagination to believe that God is sovereign, but His character is such that He wants us to respond in love -- real love, not some sort of robotic act but a love that requires a choice -- that he allows free will in the context of His creation?

    Why does sovereignty have to mean that we are some sort of benign puppets in God's self-involved drama?

    Why you insist that God has created life -- which He deliberately won't redeem -- so He can torture people for their unintended sins? -- Remember they had no choice in the matter according to the Calvinism that Pink espouses.

    And why do you Five-point Calvinists always assume they are part of the elect? If you believe in a God that created most of humankind for destruction, why are you so sure He is not stringing you along?

    I can expect the usual theological clap-trap and the rationalistic T-U-L-I-P house of cards philosophy, but I can't accept your conception of the heart of God.

    Since I know that it is God's desire for all to come to repentance, if I accepted 5-point Calvinism, I would have to be a universalist. While in a lot of ways I would like universalism to be true, the New Testament and common experience doesn't back it. Therefore, I am left with something other than Calvinism.

    (Yes I unloaded on you and this is not a closely worded argument. [​IMG] You can probably find lots of things to pick apart, but I know the heart of God through scripture and from personally experiencing it through Jesus Christ. Man-made theories can't shake what I know to be true through experience. Feel free to pick it apart now. It will make you feel better. [​IMG] )

    [ July 15, 2002, 01:09 AM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]
     
  7. Baptist Believer

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    No one is trying to "explain away God and His sovereignty". It is that kind of condescending thinking that probably won't allow you to really listen to a different opinion.

    Actually, I think you are trying to explain away God's loving character in a non-sequitur way. See my nearby post for more information.

    I'm more than a little cranky tonight about people misrepresenting God...
    :mad:
     
  8. Primitive Baptist

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    More human reasoning :mad:
     
  9. Baptist Believer

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    And your theology somehow comes from God through scripture to us without being interpreted through your mind, experience, prejudices, philosophical background, the influences on your life, you theological training, your family experience, the Bible translations you read, your prayer life, your personality, your maturity and your temperament?

    Don't scoff at others for having human reasoning unless you are something other than human! With that attitude you can never be wrong... and we all are wrong about some things.

    [​IMG]

    [ July 15, 2002, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]
     
  10. pinoybaptist

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  11. tyndale1946

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    Brethren... brethren what's with all the angry faces are we enemies or Christian brethren debating doctrine? Lets be more Christ like to one another we may disagree but let us do it in Christian brotherhood!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  12. pinoybaptist

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    You're right, Brother Glen. I apologize to everybody. I shall continue to post AW Pink's book, in parts, as time permits. Now, this is a different red face. [​IMG] :D
     
  13. KenH

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    If God is sovereign, then He must always attain what He desires. If He does not always attain what He desires, then to at least some extent He is not sovereign and is not God.

    So if God wants every single person who ever lives to be saved according to your view, but does not attain the result, then God is not God. If He cannot always attain what He wants according to your view, then how can you trust Him to save you? Perhaps something will prevent Him from accomplishing that.

    One who trusts in the never failing God,

    Ken
    Were it not for grace...
     
  14. Baptist Believer

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    Not an equal. And I don’t feel like a robot because I don’t actually believe the doctrine I condemn. I’m making the point that we are *not* robots.

    God does what He wants with His creation and His creatures. I’m just insisting that God is not pleased just to save some and condemn others. His love extends to all of us and His Spirit is working in all of humankind. Not everyone will accept His invitation, but all people have some opportunity. He wants all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

    Because Job was righteous and God had a purpose in his suffering. In fact, God brought Job to the adversary’s attention.

    Of course not. I don’t know what point you are trying to make here…

    Probably not. The book of Job does not record it. But that doesn’t support your view or disprove mine.

    No.

    Why are we held guilty for Adam’s sin? (I don’t believe in God judging us for Adam’s sin. Adam and Eve’s sin against God set all creation into futility and gave each one of us a bent toward sinning. We are sinners by nature and by choice, but we are not punished for Adam’s sin. We are punished for confirming Adam’s sin when we knowingly sin ourselves.)

    I can’t prevent God from doing or not doing anything and I never said I could. I just claim that God wants to save all and does not exclude anyone from His love.

    Not quite. True love requires a choice about the matter. When we receive Christ, it is something along the line of receiving a life ring when we are sinking in the ocean, realizing we are totally doomed and can’t save ourselves (even that realization is given by God). A life ring is tossed within our easy grasp and all we have to do is trust the thrower of the ring by grabbing it. At that point we are rescued, transformed, given a new Spirit and given the ability to fully respond to God in love.

    Nope. See above.

    (Why do people always claim that someone else is "calling God a liar" when they disagree with someone’s *interpretation* of scripture? It is very arrogant and almost always untrue. For the record, I never call God a liar. I do call some doctrines "lies" though.)

    I believe what Romans 3 says about us being dead in sin.

    (Wow… Guilt by association. I’ve never been compared to "Rev." Moon before!) :rolleyes:

    Nope. But I know God through Christ and the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit. His word also tells us His character. I have not claimed that those who disagree with me are pretenders. I am in awe of God and extol His sovereignty too, but I disagree with Calvinists who seem to confuse sovereignty with a dictatorship. It seems very clear that free will exists within the context of God’s sovereignty.

    I didn’t say that Calvinists believe all people are created for destruction (torture), just most of them.

    This is the way I understand your argument:
    1.) God creates all people.
    2.) God holds people accountable for Adam’s sin.
    3.) Anyone created after Adam is created under condemnation.
    4.) God knows who He is going to save out of those He has created and will send the rest of them to Hell, everlasting punishment.

    Therefore, God has created some for destruction.

    Glad to hear it. I don’t either. But Calvinism, as far as I have understood teaches this doctrine, though it is usually soft-pedaled.

    I agree as long as you affirm that Jesus was fully human and fully God and that He has set His love on all people.

    Not at all. I’m arguing against it. The self-sacrifice of Jesus was completely self-less and demonstrates unfathomable love toward humankind. Why must you insist that it is not for everyone?
     
  15. Baptist Believer

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    If God is sovereign, then He must always attain what He desires. </font>[/QUOTE]Why are you putting this restriction on God? Why do you demand that God being sovereign demands that He not allow free will within the context of His sovereignty – that is, free will within the context of His creation, physical laws and the circumstances of our live? Why do you have a hard time believing God has ultimate control yet refuses to control His creatures?

    God is God no matter what He attains or desires (although He might not be your conception of God). Ultimately, God will attain what He desires – a people who freely respond to Him in love – but will not gain everyone He would like. I contend that His desire for us to freely respond to Him is greater than a desire to save us against our will.

    Very poor reasoning. You need to rethink what being sovereign can mean.

    Because God does not fail in His purposes and does not let us go when we are born again. (You seem to believe that if people fail to respond to God’s love, that God Himself has failed. Not true. God’s purpose has been accomplished because He only wants willing worshipers.)

    Same here. [​IMG]
     
  16. ScottEmerson

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    What does that say about the man who was saved after reading Grace Unlimited, by Clark Pinnock? What does that mean?
     
  17. ScottEmerson

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    I would add something, but Baptist Believer covered my objections exceptionally well!

    SEC
     
  18. Pastor Larry

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    Shorten up your posts, Baptist Believer. Thank you.
     
  19. pinoybaptist

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    originally posted by Baptist Believer:
    Because it is not for everyone.
    Isaiah 53:5:
    But he was wounded for our (not for humankind's) transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities (not for humankind's), the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his stripes we are healed (not humankind).
    &gt;&gt;I think the above verse and the rest of Isaiah 53 is very personal, very specific, and very discriminating. God's sacrifice of himself in the person of his Son was intended for many , but not all.&lt;&lt;

    Isaiah 52:4-6

    For thus saith the Lord God, My people went down into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought ? They that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually everyday is blasphemed. Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold it is I.
    &gt;&gt;Again, it is a my, mine sense here. God has his people, and there are those who are not His. He is a personal God, and an intimate to those whom He loves. He may be humankind's creator, but He is not humankind's worshipped God, not humankind's Father, and not humankind's savior. He is the God worshipped by those whose dead spirits He has quickened, the Father of those whom He had begotten in Christ, and the savior of those whose names He wrote in the Lamb's book of life and whom He gave to His Son.&lt;&lt;

    From the lips of the Savior Himself.

    John6:35-40

    I am the bread of life; he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
    &gt;&gt; I can almost see you grinning and saying to yourself: see ? see ? man has a part in this thing. he must come, he must believe first.
    True but can he come and believe apart from God causing him to come and believe ? Let Jesus continue speaking&lt;&lt;

    But I said unto you that ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will, that of all which
    he hath given me
    (and apparently, God had not given all humankind to Christ to redeem for himself) I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that everyone which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 8:44-47 (Jesus speaking to the Jews, which are of national Israel):

    Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own , for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin ? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me ?
    (The reason why they don't believe him is, according to Jesus---&gt; He that is of God heareth God's words; ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

    Where in these scriptures did Jesus teach that he came to save all men ? all humankind ? As you claim he did, Baptist Believer ?
     
  20. ScottEmerson

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    It is very specific. Isaiah is speaking to the nation of Israel (See previous chapter). To take it as you do implies that Christ died only for the nation of Israel. Just a problem with your interpretation.

    [ July 15, 2002, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: ScottEmerson ]
     

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