The status of man before God.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, Aug 6, 2013.

  1. percho

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    Can one who has not been justified by the blood of Christ be in belief, or is he in unbelief, until justified?
    Is it the Spirit of God that establishes one as justified by that blood? 1 Cor. 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor. 6:11

    Can one believeth without having been given the Spirit of God? Can one believeth in his heart unless his heart has been changed by God?

    Because Christ has come and shed his blood this verse which comes from the Old Testament, "The just shall live by faith," is a little different than stated in the Old Testament which was speaking of the future. There it says in Hab. 2:6 The just shall live by his faith. That is the just shall live by the faith of the one to come, that justifies him by his blood.

    He is our faith and we cannot believeth this until given the Spirit of truth.


    Does this make sense measured against all scripture?
     
  2. Tom Butler

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    It does make sense. That's why I draw a distinction between regeneration and salvation.
     
  3. convicted1

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    BINGO!!!!!! :thumbs: We, being dead in our sins, can not believe to the saving of the soul w/o first being quickened by the Spirit.
     
  4. Revmitchell

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    Scripture never makes that distinction.
     
  5. percho

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    What is salvation relative to regeneration? Something more, something less, the same.

    Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    Relative to a baby coming into the world, would, the earnest of our inheritance be the period of time from conception/begotten until the moment of being brought forth, the redemption of the purchased possession.

    Would you put regeneration on one side of until and salvation on the other?
     
  6. Winman

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    No, what you believe contradicts numerous verses of scripture. The scripture always shows a person must believe to be regenerated (have life).

    Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    The word of God is given to us that we might be enabled to believe, and that believing we might have regeneration or life. Regeneration means to be made alive again as Jesus said twice in Luke 15.

    Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

    Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

    The prodigal son was not originally dead, he was with his father. He left home and went out in sin, and joined himself to a citizen of the far country (Satan). This is when the prodigal son spiritually died.

    When he came to himself he repented and turned back to his father. He had faith that his father would show him mercy and allow him to be a servant.

    The father saw him coming from a great distance, this is God's foreknowledge.

    When the boy came to the father, the father said he was "alive again", this is the exact meaning of the word "regeneration" to be alive again.

    You cannot be regenerated until you first believe, because until you believe you were dead in your trespasses and sins.

    Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

    Calvinists quote this verse to prove regeneration precedes faith, but it does no such thing, it refutes Calvinism. This verse shows why we were spiritually dead, we were DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SINS.

    No one is justified or forgiven their sins until they believe, therefore you cannot be quickened or made alive until you believe and your sins are washed away. This is regeneration.

    Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    This verse is saying we are not saved by doing good works, therefore we are saved by faith. The moment we believe we are washed clean of our sins, this is regeneration.

    The scriptures repeatedly teach we must first believe to have life or be regenerated.

    Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Over and over the scriptures say a person must believe to have life. The scriptures say the man who has believed is not condemned, but the man who has not believed is condemned already.

    Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of scripture, Calvinism teaches regeneration precedes faith, but the scriptures ALWAYS show faith precedes regeneration or life.
     
    #6 Winman, Aug 6, 2013
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  7. Judith

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    Yes a person can believe the truth about Jesus without having the indwelling Spirit (keep in mind the upper room as all believed before the spirit was given.)
    I would also point out that not all belief means justification. Believing without repentance toward God will send you to hell just as fast as not believing.
     
  8. agedman

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    Folks, make this really simple.

    Taking belief as saved, and not merely intellectual ascent (which is no true belief):

    One must be quickened to believe - be saved.

    One cannot be saved - believe - and not be quickened.

    There is no quickening that comes after belief.

    There is no quickening that does not result in belief - salvation.

    Any who would place salvation as a prerequisite for quickening are mistaken.

    Not one person has ever been saved that was not first made alive in Christ.

    In psalm 80, there is a plea for God to attend to His vine. Look at how the psalmist states the sequence:
    Revive us, and we will call upon Your name.
    19 O Lord God of hosts, restore us;
    Cause Your face to shine upon us, and we will be saved.
    See the sequence?

    The claim is first by God and followed by the response of man.

    God first, then man.

    This is seen throughout Scripture.

    We love because God first loved us.

    Our light is to shine because Christ is the light.

    Again, in the Psalms (119) there is this statement:
    Remember the word to Your servant,
    In which You have made me hope.
    50 This is my comfort in my affliction,
    That Your word has revived me.

    YOUR servant, YOU have made me hope
    Not will revive, but has (already taken place) revived me.

    The pattern is throughout - God does the work - man responds.

    The heart believes - the mouth declares that salvation has taken place.

    If one is "dead in trespasses and sins" they cannot express belief without first being quickened.
     
  9. Winman

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    False, this is the OPPOSITE of what scripture says.

    Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

    Here scripture clearly defines what quickening is, it is to be forgiven you all your trespasses and sins.

    No man is forgiven their sins and trespasses until they believe, we are justified by faith. Therefore faith precedes quickening.

    Scripture ALWAYS without exception shows faith precedes regeneration.
     
  10. salzer mtn

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    A un-regenerated man is dead in his sins and dead to the teachings of God. He cannot understand them.1 Cor 2:14 For the natural man received not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto: neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned. So how can a dead man hear and understand unless the Spirit first gives him life. In John 8:43 Christ ask a question of the Pharisees after he made a statement to them. Why do you not hear my voice? Then the Lord answers his own question in the same verse by saying, Even because ye cannot hear my voice. Cannot means inability, it was not given unto them to hear Gods voice, Matt 13:11 Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. Now in verse 47 of the same chapter Jesus said this, He that is of God heareth Gods words: Ye (Pharisees) therefore hear them not because ye are not of God. He that is of God is the same as when Christ said, All that the Father giveth me, shall come to me. In Acts 18:9-10 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: For I have much people in this city. The lord was sending Paul to Corinth where he had much people that would hear the words of Paul and believe and be saved.
     
    #10 salzer mtn, Aug 7, 2013
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  11. HankD

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    I believe that every person is given "light" or a divine understanding sufficient for each to go forward into the light or retreat further into the darkness.

    John 1
    6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
    7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
    8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
    9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

    I believe the "all" of verse 7 is the "every man that cometh into the world" of verse 9.​

    Also, I connect this passage with ​

    John 16
    6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
    8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;​

    You can't be reproved of sin, of righteousness and judgment unless you understand the principles thereof, principles which only God Himself can give.​

    Agreed, it is impossible to understand these pricinciples without God's enlightenment, but I believe that the message here is that "every man" coming into the world has this opportunity.

    So, personally I can't accept the calvinistic dogma that unregenerate people can't understand God. Sure they are dead, but as a physical model the story of Lazarus who was dead and heard Christ is true spiritually as well.​

    All the dead hear this voice of Christ through the Spirit of God reproving/convicting "every man" coming into the world.​

    Every man can see this light (e.g. the image of Christ that we bear if we indeed bear it). ​

    So, we play a role as well, they can see that there are some in this evil world who do not operate by it's principles - the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life which is a miracle in their eyes.​

    Of course we can hide this "light" under a "bushel" by living according to the world's principles. ​

    Why not throw away the Systematic Theologies (at least for a season) and actually be as Christ said "Ye are the light of the world"​

    Why be sidetracked by these unresolved (and thereby useless) debates?​

    Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.​

    HankD​
     
    #11 HankD, Aug 7, 2013
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  12. The Biblicist

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    Paul makes it clear that Gentiles who never hear of the gospel have the light of nature and of conscience (Rom. 1:19-20; 2:14-15) but due to their fallen nature they always without exception "suppress" that light and the proof is that nothing but suppression and digression can be found in Romans 1:19-2:14).


    Why do you omit the scriptures in the preceding text that explicitly define the very nature of that light??? John explicitly states that Christ is that "light" and the "light" is not enlightenment as you suggest but is "life" and it is this "life" that is given to every man as they are coming into the world. They receive their NATURAL life from God as Creator (vv. 1-5).

    Why do you omit the scriptues that follow vv. 6-9? Life is still the subject but not life due to physical birth, but life received from second birth (vv. 10-13). So your analysis is completely flawed and contrary to the very definitions given by John in the context.

    Well, obviously every human being receives physical life from Christ as the creator. Notice the time of reception! Not when convicted of sin or some later period after birth but when they COME INTO the world. Again, the details of the context completely repudiate your analysis.




    This passage is found in a context that speaks of the future coming of the Holy Spirit whose mission is to empower the church to preach the gospel to the GENTILES = "world" as in Romans 11 where "gentiles" and "world" are used for synonyms.

    Rom. 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

    God's purpose of redemption would shift away from the nation of Israel through the ministry of the churches of Christ to the Gentiles (world).

    His audiance were the apostles = Jews, who perfectly understood that the term "world" referred to non-Jews as the Jews never used the term "world" to describe Israel or Jews.




    That is our point! There were many dead people in their graves in that cemetary who did not hear Christ's voice and who did not come out of the grave. It was an effectual individual personalized calling and that is true of the spiritual side.

    Then why didn't all the dead in the graves that day come forth like Lazerus did? Can't answer can you? It does not fit your argument because your argument is wrong!

    Can every physical blinded man see phsyical light? If they could they would not be blind would they? If your position was true there would be no such thing as spiritual blindness.

    YOu are not addressing the problem! The problem is not light but the ability to see light. Your positon denies there are any spiritual blind people in the world OR presumes their blindess is temporarily cured unless they reject the light after seeing it and then return to spiritual blindness. There is not a solitary scripture in the entire Bible that teaches temporary sight is restored spiritually to spiritually blinded people. Can you find any example of that in the physical realm? No! You are either blind or can see and if a person is blind they cannot see until Christ restored their sight and every sight restored did not return to physical blindness.
     
  13. salzer mtn

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    Addressing Hank D. If Christ Lighteth or enlightens or gives understanding to all men alike then you tell me why would anyone in his right mind turn from that light back into darkness ? Will a sane person remain in a burning house if he is convinced he will be burned up if he stays. The Spirit came into this world not only to convict but also to convince. When Christ Lighteth a man it is by power of the Holy Spirit, 1 Thess 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost and in much assurance. When Christ enlightens a man, that man is totally convinced. Does the every man mentioned in verse nine mean every man without exception ? No, In verse eleven the scripture say's He came unto his own but his own (Jews) received him not. The answer to the every man, is revealed in verse thirteen. Verse twelve says, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them who believe on his name: Verse thirteen , Which were born, not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, BUT OF GOD.
     
    #13 salzer mtn, Aug 7, 2013
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  14. HankD

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    It wasn't their turn yet.


    Correct. There isn't. Through the conviction of the Spirit of God we are all given limited sight as to the gravity of our sin.

    But we love darkness rather than light because our deeds are evil.

    No one can "love" darkness unless they have some knowledge/fear/hate of the light.

    Unless Lazarus is still alive he died again.

    In the spiritual realm it seems a matter of degree until the rebirth, the dawning of the perfect day when conviction leads to the full realization of our condition and we cry out to God.

    For me personally, I was under conviction for about two years, the last month of which was a hell on earth until the day I was born again sitting on my barracks bunk reading John 11:26 - and I caved.

    Proverbs 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.​

    Admitedly there seems to be something causative within those who respond positively to the light. I couldn't resist reading the Bible though it condemned me.​

    HankD
     
    #14 HankD, Aug 7, 2013
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  15. HankD

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    Why? Because we love darkness rather than light.

    Sure, sin is a kind of madness. Take those as case in point who caused 9-11.

    Yes, verses 12 and 13 set the two parameters as essential. He must be "received" and "born of God". No debate there.

    HankD
     
    #15 HankD, Aug 7, 2013
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  16. The Biblicist

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    It wasn't their turn yet.
     
  17. HankD

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    I don't know if they heard. Presumably none responded, but the scripture doesn't say any responded at that time.

    Non-sequitur: There are no fish in this passage.

    It's John 11:26 and it's addressed to Martha not Lazarus.

    But, her response seems genuine.
    There are those who have a limited knowledge but are not yet saved.
    I did. I was a cradle Catholic who had a knowledge of the Trinity (for instance) having gone though some Catholic schooling.

    John 5:35 He (John the Baptist) was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.​

    Granted Christ is the final judge as to who are His and who are not.
    Who are the wheat and who are the tares.

    Apples confirm the tree is an apple tree.

    In my case it was not so much my sins but my sin, that I was what I was just by being me. My list of sins were just the evidence of what I knew I was, a sin being.

    My conflict with your reasoning is that you say the unregenerate cannot know anything of God.

    I believe they do and can have this "light" which is available to each man coming into the world concerning their sinful condition.

    Cain had a face-to-face confrontation with God. He knew and understood that he was displeasing to God. True, God initiated the communication as to why the displeasure but there was a two-way communication.

    Cain responded as to His (God's) displeasure. We know how it ended.
    He understood His reproval, resented it and took it out on his brother.

    We know he understood, the scripture declares it.

    1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

    Cain prayed (responded directly to God) after the murder and God in direct reponse subsequently gave him a mark which protected him from others.

    There was two-way communication.

    I'm through for the moment.

    HankD
     
    #17 HankD, Aug 7, 2013
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  18. The Biblicist

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    You are living in a fantasy world! Lazerus was PHYSICALLY Dead. No mere vocalization could call him or any other PHYSICALLY dead person out of the grave. It was God's POWER that called him out and the same power would have emptied all the grave if it was not specfically directed to Lazerus by name, thus it was an effectual personal call on the physical level, which means the parallel in the Spiritual level is equally an effectual personal call.



    On the contrary, your argument was that one must experience light in order hate light and love darkness. That is simply not true any more than a fish must first gasp for breath out of water to love water. It is his nature to love water. Likewise, it is the fallen nature to love darkness and resist light.



    I
    It makes no difference who it is addressed to. It is a stated fact. Any believer in Christ NEVER DIES again, "believest thou this?"


    John 5:35 He (John the Baptist) was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.​

    Granted Christ is the final judge as to who are His and who are not.
    Who are the wheat and who are the tares.



    Jesus clearly taught a precise order. The tree must be made good first, then the fruit is good. The cup must be cleansed inside first before the outside makes any difference. Do you see the order?
     
  19. Winman

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    The dead are not as you misrepresent. The rich man who died and went to hell in Luke 16 was spiritually dead, yet he was able to see, hear, thirst, feel torment and remorse, worry about his brothers, and carry on a conversation with Abraham.

    In 1 Samuel 28 the witch of Endor was able to call Samuel the prophet out of the grave. He was a dead believer like Lazarus. He did not reenter his body like Lazarus, but probably spoke through the witch herself.

    1 Sam 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
    16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
    17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

    The fact is, scripture shows the dead can communicate with others. They can both hear and speak, they can also feel emotions and pain. They are not like a lifeless corpse.

    The scriptures do not say Jesus made Lazarus alive so that he would hear his voice, the scriptures say "he that was DEAD came forth".

    Jhn 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

    Scripture doesn't say "he that was ALIVE came forth" it says "And he that was DEAD came forth". As long as Lazarus was separated from his body he was dead. As soon as he entered his body he was alive again, therefore he was dead when he heard Jesus call.

    Jesus said the DEAD shall hear his voice, not the living.

    Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    The Bible doesn 't teach that a person must be made alive to be able to hear Jesus, the scriptures teach that the DEAD can hear Jesus. Another example is the young maiden that was raised to life.

    Luk 8:54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
    55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
    56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.

    This young girl was not alive when she heard Jesus, she was dead, her spirit was separated from her body. The scriptures tell us a body without a spirit is dead.

    Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    Did Jesus have to make this young girl alive before she could hear him? No, the scriptures clearly show she heard Jesus and afterward returned to her body. When she heard Jesus she was not in her body, she was dead.

    The dead can hear Jesus.

    Jesus showed a man can determine whether he is a good tree that bears good fruit, or a corrupt tree that bears corrupt fruit.

    Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
     
    #19 Winman, Aug 7, 2013
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  20. webdog

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    John 20:31 alone refutes this. Its sad to see you regurgitating the same tired fallacies you once truthfully battled.
     

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