The strong case against a pre-tribulation rapture

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by evangelist-7, Jan 9, 2014.

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  1. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7
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    Sorry, but there is not enough space to quote the longer Scripture passages.

    Let us get the most difficult one out of the way …
    1 Thes 5:9 … "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ"
    Because of the other passages below, let us just NOT assume this refers to God’s wrath at the end of the age!
    Perhaps it means salvation is what we were created for, but sometimes people rebel and do not reach it.
    A general could tell a new soldier, “You have not been trained for dying, but for obtaining victory.”
    Yet not every soldier sees victory. But the elect will see salvation, even if they perish during the wrath.
    They can be protected or hidden from God’s wrath and not suffer through it.
    If they have not renounced God and taken the mark of the beast, the wrath is not directed at them.

    Luke 21:36 … “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy
    to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

    This might just indicate that we will all be here on earth during tribulation and wrath.
    John 17:15 … “I do not pray that You should take them out of the world”

    Matt 13:24-30 … The good wheat is not gathered first … the bad tares are burned first.
    Matt 13:36-43 … The wise will understand …
    the lawless ones are gathered for fire, then the righteous ones are rewarded.

    1 Cor 15:51-52 … This last trumpet is also what the seventh angel sounds in Rev 11:15
    when Christ has received His kingdom, after the tribulation.
    Matt 24:29-31 … The great trumpet here must be the same trumpet as in 1 Cor 15 above.

    Joel 2:30-32Surely the sun darkening, etc. in Matt 24 after the tribulation is the same event,
    which is before the Day of the Lord in Joel 2.

    2 Thes 1:5-10 … Paul says the saints will be revealed only when Jesus is revealed
    in the wrath of heavenly fire with His angels.

    Matt 24:3,6-8 … If the tribulation is going to occur after we are raptured,
    why would Jesus have to warn us about such details?

    We know that halfway through the 7-year tribulation, the antichrist enters the rebuilt Temple
    and proclaims himself to be God. This passage tells us this is before the rapture …
    2 Thes 2:1-4 … This indicates the Day of the Lord is not before the 7-year tribulation.

    Daniel 7:21-25These saints are NOT raptured away first, but they endure the second half
    of the 7-year tribulation on earth until judgment is passed.

    Matt 24:9 … “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you,
    and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.”

    This does NOT sound like the faithful will be avoiding the tribulation.

    Matt 24:13 … “But he who endures (in the faith) to the end (of his life) shall be (eternally) saved.”
    if Jesus was referring to physical death, would He state such an obvious fact here (or any place)?

    Luke 21:36 … “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy
    to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

    Rev 2:10 … “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer.
    … Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

    This clarifies that we will need strength to escape the terrible events and survive until the end.
    Suffering through such times will make some people think …

    Matt 24:48 … “But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming’ ”
    Evil servants think this; but those who are enlightened are not expecting Him before these tribulations.

    Matt 24:15 … Know what’s happening when you see the antichrist standing in the holy place.

    Matt 24:16-21 … These are instructions on what we need to do when we see these tribulation signs.
    Jesus is telling us this is the beginning of the “great” tribulation.
    Run to the high ground to avoid tidal waves and such. This is one week before Judgment Day.

    Matt 24:22-23 … The elect are still suffering on earth because it still is NOT quite time for the rapture.

    Matt 24:29-31 … This clearly indicates that Jesus gathers His elect
    after the great signs and after the tribulation. Also see Matt 16:27.

    John 6:39-54 In 4 different verses, Jesus tells us the raising up (the rapture) will be on the last day.

    The preceding week is the “great” tribulation, which follows the 7-year tribulation period.

    Matt 24:19-21 … This is the last day of the 7-year tribulation period (and the first day of the pole shift).
    The light of the sun goes out for 3 days.
    Jesus was dead in the earth for parts of 3 days, and now the sun will appear to be dead for 3 days,
    just like the only sign we will be given … see Matt 12:39-40.

    These will be scary times ... when after years of famine, war, and persecution, civilization falls,
    the electricity and other utilities vanish, the earth is literally groaning beneath us.
    As everything on the crust moves, there are earthquakes, volcanoes, and tidal waves,
    And for 3 of these terrible days we are in complete darkness.
    It will feel like the end, and for most people it will be the end.

    But, Almighty God is able to protect His people whenever He wishes!

    .
     
  2. prophet

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    Now I'll answer, with the BIBLICAL case for the pre- trib cRapture.
    :










    .
     
  3. Salty

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    I only quoted the best part of your post.

    Actually, surverys show that at least 78.9% of BB members acutally have a Bible in their home.- so it is not really necessary to quote all those verses.....
     
  4. ktn4eg

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    Sarge: Am I, therefore, to conclude that the remaining 21.1 percent of BB members do not have the Authorized 1611 King James Bible in their home? :smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:
     
  5. steaver

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    I thought I would just quote the part he got right. (Well, except for the "wishes" part).

    1Pe1:5 - "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
     
  6. Salty

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    I was wondering who would get the right answer! :thumbs: :smilewinkgrin:
     
  7. evangelist-7

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    Very interesting responses ... SO FAR, consistent with this forum.

    Note:
    The idea of a pre-trib rapture began around 1830 in Scotland when 2 people had visions about it.

    This truth of the post-tribulation rapture is every bit as distasteful as is OSAS not being true!
    And this is exactly why they are NOT taught in most churches!

    Yes, we have a very unfortunate trinity of major false doctrines being taught in most churches:
    cessationism, OSAS, and the pre-tribulation rapture!

    But, many do not believe this because ...
    “the god/ruler of this world/age” (John 12:31, 2 Cor 4:4) is the greatest liar and deceiver in history!
    Way too clever for man to overcome ... so the Lord has to give revelation about these things!

    .
     
    #7 evangelist-7, Jan 10, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2014
  8. Salty

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    You forgot to post a link -
    So I googled "Rapture, Scotland, 1830 , visions"

    and I found this -

    Thanks for the info!:thumbs:
     
  9. prophet

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    The Office of Apostle has ceased,
    the power of God has not.

    'Eternal' and 'everlasting' have definitions, and are irrevocable by default.

    'After the tribulation' is a direct quote from the Lord.

    'Rapture' isnt found in the Scripture, and is not even a concrete noun, in English. It cannot be an event. It is a feeling, an abstract.
     
  10. ktn4eg

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    Neither is the word 'Trinity.' Am I, therefore, to assume that one should not believe that the Trinity does not exist? :tonofbricks:
     
  11. evangelist-7

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    Yes, prior to about 1830, IMO everyone believed in a post-trib catching away of the saints.

    From the guy who wrote your googled site ...

    "Both Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul made statements that clearly establish the rapture doctrine.

    Jesus said, in Matthew 25:13,
    "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."


    Paul affirmed in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18:
    "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
    and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."


    Anyone here think these passages confirm a pre-trib rapture?

    I see this as a perfect example of a believer who has been brainwashed into believing false doctrine.
    So what else is new! ... There is nothing new under the sun! (Who said dat?)

    .
     
    #11 evangelist-7, Jan 10, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2014
  12. prophet

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    I wouldnt teach the 'Trinity'. It has been defined in many different opposing ways.
    Perfect example, makes the case.
     
  13. Salty

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    When you say everyone - do you mean 100% of Christians - or just the vast majority....


    ADDED FOR EDIT
    How silly of me - I just noticed you said "IMO"
     
  14. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    May as well. One of the most adamant anti-rapture advocates runs Shepherd's Chapel out of Gravette, Arkansas. Has a high-powered radio ministry -- just one station, but it's powerful -- booming their heresy all over the U.S. Among other things, this group ...
    • Denies the Trinity and teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are really three offices held by the one God.
    • Denies the existence of eternal Hell.
    • Denies the doctrine of the Rapture as false.
    • Denies physical resurrection of believers.
    • Teaches annihilationism: non-existence after death for sinners.
    • Teaches that certain Old Testament kosher laws regarding meat should be followed.
    • Teaches Serpent Seed doctrine: Eve had literal sexual relations with the serpent.
    • Claims the offspring of Eve's impregnation resulted in Cain, Satan's offspring.
    • Says the Kenites are the tares of the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matt. 13.
    • Believes Satan's fallen angels impregnated women around the time of Noah.
    • States Interracial marriage is wrong.
    • Claims being born again is to enter into this body from a spiritual body of another age.
    • Says America and Britain are the lost tribes of Israel.
    • Believes people were alive in a preexistence before their birth.
    • Claims there was an earth age prior to Adam where a race of people lived.
    I list all of these because most of the hysterical, ridiculous, unbiblical anti-rapture arguments can be traced to this bunch of nutballs in Arkansas. No heresy seems too trivial for them to adopt. So, once others open themselves up to the nonsense against the Rapture, who knows what else they might embrace?
     
    #14 thisnumbersdisconnected, Jan 10, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2014
  15. ktn4eg

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    TND--

    I didn't realize that good, old Brother Arnold Murray was still in business over the airwaves! :thumbs:

    Every once in a while I would tune him in merely for entertainment purposes.

    I don't think there was a heresy that he did not espouse and defend in one way or another.
























    I was tempted to ask him why he never used any other Bible than the King James Version. :tonofbricks:
     
  16. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Whoa, there's a thread title for ya! "Heretics who use the KJV" -- wonder what forum that would properly fit into? :laugh:
     
  17. evangelist-7

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    Hope you don't believe that some here do not believe in a rapture (the catching away of the saints) at some point.
    .
     
  18. BobRyan

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    In Matt 24 we have
    29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."




    So then for those who prefer an even more pointed reading ---


    Matt 24

    29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


    The man-made tradition of the Pre-trib rapture does not survive Matt 24.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Prior to the 1830's and 40's - almost all Christians were either post-mill or a-mill when it comes to the second coming. Thus they did not have much of a chance of being in the pre-trib rapture group I would guess.

    That is why there was such a fuss before that time about the Americas being the "new world" the "new earth" the new promised land.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. evangelist-7

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    Again, we find ourselves on the same page ... PTL.

    Wonder why so many American "Christians" believe in it?

    .
     
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