The Subtle Denotation of a ‘Heretic’

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 28, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0

    I understand that the word heretic is subjective. None the less, it has always been used in a negative light, casting another in despised and rejected light. Subsequent to calling one a heretic in times past, has led to the murder of those deemed as a heretical by those that have held claim to be comprising the Church.

    Do you believe for a minute that the Church in the past has considered heretics as fellow members of the body of Christ, or has the Church always felt that heretics were 'outside of the faith?' When they killed heretics, do you believe that their intentions were honestly in line with love to a fellow believer, simply sending them home to receive early rewards as they drew in breaths of burning human flesh and witnessed uinthinkable torture?

    Can one be a heretic, as commonly understood by the Church, and at the same time be part of the body of Christ? Is your opinion one commonly held in the past by the Church? If not, upon what bases do you form your opinion?
     
  2. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    There are some on this list that need to rethink this heretic business, especially those guilty of personally attacking others on this list with that pejorative. It is preposterous for this list to prohibit personal attacks, and forbid name calling, and then allow its members to call another a heretic. Such conduct on a debate list that encourages “Other Denominations” and others of differing perspectives should never be tolerated.

    [The posting of this link was, in and of itself, a personal attack and therefore deleted]

    The object of this personal attack was banned for LIFE while the individual responsible for this personal attack still remains a member of good standing. This list does Christian charity and love for the brethren a disservice by allowing such conduct to continue without the slightest hint of impropriety. The name a of a good man, a fellow believer, a faithful minister of the gospel of many years has been besmirched and drug through the mud by such comments and needs to be corrected.

    I am of the opinion that when one calls another a heretic that they are calling in question, without a doubt, ones salvation. That is in clear violation of the stated rules of this forum. Why the silence? Are some on this list so devoid of fairness and lack substantive argumentation for their positions that this is all they can in the end do, i.e., resort to personal attacks at the expense of others and Christian charity and brotherly love? I say shame on them and shame on those that allow such conduct.
     
    #2 Heavenly Pilgrim, Oct 1, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2008
  3. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Heresy is usually considered to be holding beliefs that are contrary to the essentials of the faith. So denying the deity of Christ is heretical; denying the Trinity is heretical; denying the bodily resurrection of Jesus is heretical, for examples.

    Heresy is not subjective if it is determined from the word of God.

    It is against the rules to call someone another BB member a heretic but it is not against the rules to say that such-and-such beliefs are heretical.
     
  4. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    At least two mods and one former one have called the doctrine(s) of Calvinism damnable heresies.

    It's hard to separate Calvinists from Calvinism.Since Calvinists subscribe to the teachings of Calvinism according to the view of many on the BB -- they are in fact damnable heretics.

    I think that a number of posters are unthinking when it comes to these kinds of charges. First of all,the word "damnable" is rather severe.It carries the meaning that the teachings held by a given individual is worthy of eternal torment -- that they are Hell-bound.

    Those who throw that phrase around with reckless abandon are sinning up a storm.
     
  5. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Your opinion is wrong.
    No one's salvation was called in question.
    Even in the link you gave no one was called a heretic, and thus you made a false accusation.
    The word you need to concentrate on is "heresy" which is a deviation from accepted doctrine. The posts that you have referred to did not attack the person, calling people heretics, but rather attacked the doctrine which was indeed heretical. There is a difference. The same thread mentioned "ME heresies". There are those that believe in the heresies of Millennial Exclusion. They are heresies because they infer a salvation by works, question salvation by grace, the sufficiency of the blood of Christ, etc.
    But to call these brethren "heretics" in the traditional sense of the word, as you used in your first post, I would not do. They have gone astray believing some false doctrine, doctrine which is heretical in nature. But I don't call them heretics.
    Hear again what Marcia says:

    She is right.
    Error needs to be exposed and pointed out.
    When one is wrong then they are wrong. And that usually can be demonstrated.
     
  6. trustitl

    trustitl
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2007
    Messages:
    735
    Likes Received:
    0
    I used to think I could call someone who believed a false teaching a heretic. I think I even may have done it here. However, I do not think that I should do that anymore unless I am sure that the person does not love the Lord. It is very difficult to do that in this type of a forum because I don't know any of you outside of the ramblings, I mean positions that are posted here. It is very likely that most of us are trying too hard to be something we are not.
    "Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment." James 3:1


    I think it is very likely that many people who hold false teachings are just deceived or being deceived: born again children of God, but still learning truth is the midst of a perverse generation filled with wolves in sheep's clothing. This is not a bad thing, but rather exactly what God wants. We need to watch out to see if we are guilty of the following:
    "But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another." Gal. 5:15


    Those of you that think someone is a heretic should stop battling these issues over and over:

    "A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject" Titus 3:10


    Many of us continue to beat each other up and are saying more about ourselves than the person we oppose.

    The BB is well intended and can serve a purpose but I think it is dangerous as well. I was involved in a ministry to High School student which had the motto: "earn the right to be heard". It is very difficult to do that is this type of setting because we do not know each other outside of the arguments posted here. Paul gave very wise counsel when he wrote:

    "And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;" I Thess. 5:12


    I think we all need to examine ourselves to see if we are operating as the body of Christ.

    "So then, encourage one another and build each other up" I Thess 5:11
     
  7. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    TrustitL, I believe you are a voice of reason in this thread. :thumbs:

    Tell us, can one call the ideas or doctrines of another ‘heretical’ and at the same time deny that they, by doing so, are calling the other a heretic?
     
    #7 Heavenly Pilgrim, Oct 2, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 2, 2008
  8. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rippon, you as well are a voice of reason on this thread. :thumbs:

    May I ask you if in fact one can call the doctrines of the other “damnable heresies” without judging the salvation of the other, and in doing so be directly insinuating that such a one is indeed a heretic?
     
  9. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    I agree with you.If one calls the doctrines of another "damnable heresies" that is indeed judging the salvation of the other and is in essence saying the other person is a heretic and outside the faith.
     
  10. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have no hesitation is calling a belief contrary to the essential Christian doctrine a "heresy." I see no need to use the word "damnable."

    When Oneness pentecostals were allowed here, I debated with them and stated that denying the Trinity is a heresy. This was declared a heresy back in the 3rd century and it still is one today. I did not call anyone a heretic, but of course, if they assert this view, they would be one. But that is the consequence of their beliefs.

    It is my understanding that those who hold beliefs contrary to Christianity are not allowed on the BB at all. That is why the Oneness followers were eventually banned. Also, one time a Mormon showed up here and he had to go. This is because the BB is for Baptists and other Christians, not just for anyone. A non-Christian being allowed here could undermine the faith of a new believer or create all kinds of disturbances.

    There are plenty of other discussion forums where people of all types of religions can go.
     
  11. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sometimes it seems to me Christians spend more time worrying about the use of the word "heresy" (though I admit it can be used wrongly and should not be used this way) than the fact that there are heresies out there and in the church. This should be what Christians are concerned about.
     
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0



    HP: This is about fairness, integrity, hypocrisy, Christian love, respect towards and doing good to all men, ESPECIALLY those of the household of faith.

    Ga 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
     
  13. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't disagree with that. I myself have been put by some here in the heretical category because I'm not a Calvinist.

    This is another subject you speak of here, however. Christian love is one thing; identifying heresy is another thing and is not against the Bible if the Bible us used as a standard. "False teachings" are aberrations or heresies that depart from Scripture. Aberrations are not heretical but often become so.

    We've seen this progression with many. Clark Pinnock, once an evangelical, first started denying hell. Then he became an open theist. Then he started talking about God having a body. He's just one example.

    Brian McLaren was a pastor of a big evangelical church in MD. Then he became part of the Emergent "village" wanting to reach the younger postmodern generations (which is fine), the he started saying we don't know what the gospel is, then he said that people can become Christians and still remain Buddhist/Hindu/Muslim, now he says Jn 14.6 is not telling us that Jesus is the only way to God.
     
  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,869
    Likes Received:
    3
    Rippon:
    "It's hard to separate Calvinists from Calvinism.Since Calvinists subscribe to the teachings of Calvinism according to the view of many on the BB -- they are in fact damnable heretics."

    GE:
    The reformers and puritans spoke of free will as an idol. It means they meant freewillers committed idolatry. Such persons are lost, that is damned. I think they were wrong. Almost every one in my family were free willers, so my dad. If ever there was a saved Christian, I believe, it was my dad.

    Nevertheless, I FULLY agree with the reformers and puritans, the 'Calvinists', free will IS idolatry and IS damnable.
     
  15. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Yes and no, I would say.

    Yes, because many Christians just go along with what they are taught by other Christians, not necessarily wolves in sheeps clothing although this is true in many cases, this is being deceived. Howbeit by ignorance.

    No, because many Christians go along with what they feel rather than allowing proper scripture exegesis to shape their views. These are not ignorant, they do read from the scriptures but they do not study the scriptures within the bounds of biblical hermeneutics. These are not deceived, they simply are "bullheaded" so to speak. They favor a feeling over facts. These Christians are not deceived and will not be able to claim deception at their judgment. These Christians will be found to have been counseled over and over to rightly divide the truth yet they refused the instruction and went about their way believing their own way.

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
  16. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP: You speak out of both sides of your mouth. If it is damnable, your father split hell wide open. If it is idolatry, your father was guilty of idolatry, and as such is outside of the kingdom. You cannot hold two such opposing opinions and not expect the reader to reasonably see your comments as contradictory and as such in error on one account or the other.

    In this case you would have done well to listen to your godly father.
     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,869
    Likes Received:
    3
    I damn a doctrine -- doctrine is the object. I don't damn the person who believes the doctrine.
     
  18. Reformer

    Reformer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    236
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have heard it said that "any wrong teaching or belief about God, the Lord Jesus, the Holy Spirit, or the Bible, is to some degree heresy" IF that is accurate (and that is debatable) then we are ALL heretics to at least some degree. I seriously doubt anyone here would say they were never wrong, Right?

    just a little food for thought.

    Reformer
     
  19. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think that's a clear definition. They may mean by "wrong" a false teaching contrary to the biblical teaching, or a teaching that attacks the nature of God, Jesus, the HS, and the truth of God's word.

    "Wrong" needs to be further defined or clarified. Denying the deity of Christ is not only wrong, it denies the nature of Christ -- who He is.

    We can be wrong about some things that we may not know the truth of until heaven - such as endtimes stuff. But I don't think that is what the quote is referring to.
     
  20. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    8,169
    Likes Received:
    0
    Heresy is confusing to me. Primarily because everybody is someone else's Heretic. The term means this :
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...