The T In The TULIP Doctrine

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by tyndale1946, Feb 10, 2002.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    Ok all you Calvinist, here is your chance to shine and talk about what I believe is true doctrine! Lets start out with the doctrine of Totally Depravity! I believe that when a person understands totally depravity then they can truely see how great and complete their Eternal Salvation really is! I might make this comment also that the doctrine Calvin coined TULIP was biblical and true long before John Calvin coined the term... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  2. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    5,139
    Likes Received:
    25
    In addition to and in conjunction with Total Depravity, I also believe in Total Inability - that there is within man a complete inability to come to God. "No man CAN come unto me, except..." John 6:44. Some people that I know believe in total depravity but do not believe in total inability, although I'm not sure how they can reconcile that.
     
  3. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    Brother Robert I thought with Total Depravity that Total Inability was implied but from your experience in the ministry I see that is not the case in reference to other ministers who you've known.

    I believe that man is unable to recover from his fallen state by any ability he may possess by nature.

    John 6:44 and Also Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

    I would like to ask a question of all of you when did the doctrine of Totally Depravity and Total Inability leave the church? In my church this is church and bible doctrine and we speak of the righteousness of God not the ability of Man... Just my thoughts... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  4. Australian Baptist Student

    Australian Baptist Student
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2001
    Messages:
    346
    Likes Received:
    0
    Clearly, no one can make themselves righteous by their own deeds before God. It is as we cling to Jesus that we are saved. Sometimes, however, total depravity is taken to mean that unredeemed mankind is incapable of doing or recognising good, and that God is deaf to their prayers. The story of Cornelius in Acts shows this to be false. God tells unconverted, gentile Cornelius "I have heard your prayers and seen your good works". While this is not enough to save him, he is told to send for Peter, it clearly shows that God does hear the prayers of the unsaved, and can declare their works to be good. Also, when Peter preaches at the beginning of Acts and the people are convicted, they cry "what must we do to be saved?" Peter does not correct them and state that "you can not do anything to be saved", but rather, he tells them to repent and be baptised.
     
  5. Brutus

    Brutus
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Messages:
    357
    Likes Received:
    0
    When we speak of man's depravity we mean man's natural condition apart from any grace exerted by God to restrain or transform man.There is no doubt that man could perform more evil acts toward his fellow man than he does.But if he is restrained from performing more evil acts by motives that are not owing to his glad submission to God,then even his "virtue" is evil in the sight of God!Rom.14:23 says,"Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."This is an indictment of all natural "virtue" that does not flow from a heart humbly relying on God's grace.The terrible condition of man's heart will never be recognized by people who assess it only in relation to other men.Rom.14:23 makes plain that depravity is our condition in relation to God primarily,and only secondary in relation to man.Michael,Psa.121 :cool:
     
  6. JAMES2

    JAMES2
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2001
    Messages:
    633
    Likes Received:
    0
    [ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
     
  7. Brutus

    Brutus
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Messages:
    357
    Likes Received:
    0
    Totally depraved man can be very religious. They can pray and give alms and fast,as Jesus said(Mt.6:1-18).But their very religion is rebllion against the rights of their Creator,if it does not come from a childlike heart of trust in the free grace of God.Religion is one of the chief ways that man conceals his unwillingness to forsake self-reliance and bank all his hopes on the unmerited mercy of God(Lk.18:9-14;Col.2:20-23).The totality of our rebellion is seen in Romans 3:9-10,18"I have already charged that all men,both Jews and Greeks,are under the power of sin,as it is written:None is righteous,no not one;no one seeks for God...There is no fear of God before their eyes."It is a myth that man in his natural state is genuinely seeking God.Men do seek God,but they do not seek Him for who He is!They seek Him in a pinch as one who might preserve them from death or enhance their worldly pleasures.Apart from conversion,no one comes to the light of God. ;)
     
  8. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    Christ raised a dead man not one that was partially dead or had some kind of a spark of life in him. Lazarus come forth and he came forth in his grave clothes. When the scripture You hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and in sin and we acknowledge that quickening we also come forth in our grave clothes.

    Christ told them loose him and let him go. I truely believe Lazarus died again as those who are quickened will die again because of our sin against God. I also believe that when the child of God can truely understand the doctrine of Total Depravity then they can truely understand the doctrine of Salvation... When Gods children embraced being Totally Depraved then they can truely see the radiant glory of Totally Saved... Brother Glen :D
     
  9. Brutus

    Brutus
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Messages:
    357
    Likes Received:
    0
    Some do come to the light,but listen to what Jn.3:20-21 says about them"Everyone who does evil hates the light,and does not come to the light,lest his deeds should be exposed.But he who does what is true comes to the light,that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God."Yes there are those who come to the light--namely those whose deeds are the work of God."Wrought in God" means worked by God.Apart from this gracious work of God all men hate the light of God and will not come to Him lest their evil be exposed--this is total rebellion."No one seeks for God..there is no fear of God before their eyes!" :eek:
     
  10. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    Let me pose one question is there a time salvation? Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

    2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

    3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    I feel according to scripture that he was speaking of children of God who didn't realize the completness of their eternal salvation. To me this is that glorious light that delivers spiritual Israel from darkness... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  11. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,841
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brutus:
    Totally depraved man can be very religious. They can pray and give alms and fast,as Jesus said(Mt.6:1-18).But their very religion is rebllion against the rights of their Creator,if it does not come from a childlike heart of trust in the free grace of God....They seek Him in a pinch as one who might preserve them from death or enhance their worldly pleasures.Apart from conversion,no one comes to the light of God. ;)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Amen. One of the great tragedies in modern churches today is "seeker-sensitivity"; "worhsip" services designed to be "attractive" to the lost. This is the popular Willow Creek and Saddleback model which dumbs down doctrine and worship for the sake of "making the seeker feel at home".

    No one seeks after God, not in the act of repentance unless the Father draws him.

    I like what Michael Horton has said: "We must be seeker-sensitive, but remember, it is God who is the One who seeks".
     
  12. Brutus

    Brutus
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Messages:
    357
    Likes Received:
    0
    In Romans14:23 Paul says,"Whatever is not from faith is sin."Therefore,if all men are in total rebellion,everything that they do is the product of rebellion and cannot be an honor to God,but only part of their sinful rebellion.If a king teaches his subjects how to fight well and then those subjects rebel against their king and use the very skill he taught them to resist him,then even those skills become evil.Man does many things which he can only do because he is created in the image of God and which in the service of God could be praised.But in the service of man's self-justifying rebellion,these very things are sinful.In Romans7:18 Paul says,"I know that no good thing dwells in me,that is,in my flesh."This is a confession of the truth that in our rebellion nothing we think or feel is good.It's all a part of our rebellion.The fact that Paul qualifies his depravity with the words,"that is,in my flesh",shows that he is willing to affirm the good of anything that the Spirit of God produces in him,Rom.5:18."Flesh"refers to man in his natural state apart from the work of God's Spirit.So what Paul is saying in Rom.7:18 is that apart from the work of God's Spirit all we think and feel and do is not good.We must recognize that the word "good" has a broad range of meanings.And we must use it in a restricted sense to refer to many actions of fallen people which in relation are in fact not good.Example:we will have to say that it is good that most unbelievers do not kill and that some unbelievers perform acts of benevolence.What we mean when we call such actions good is that they more or less conform to the external pattern of life that God has commanded in Scripture.However,such outward conformity to the revealed will of God is not righteousness in relation to God.It is not done out of reliance on Him for His glory.He is not trusted for the resources,though He gives them all.Nor is His honor exalted,even though that's His will in all things,1Cor.10:31.Therefore even these "good"acts are part of our rebellion and are not"good"in the sense that really counts in the end--in relation to God. :D
     
  13. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    I pose this question because some others believe in a saving by baptism salvation. If John The Baptist was in the baptising business he sure wasn't very pleasant to some of those Jews who came to him. Ye generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee the wrath to come.

    I believe when a person sees their total depravity and they are unable of their own righteousness to save theirself, then they are true candidates for the ordinance of baptism. We come to realize by the light given by Jesus Christ the truths of the gospel that we are born sinners and will die the same.

    We also realize that to follow our Lord in the ordinance of baptism was only as a act of obedience to his command and never eternally saved no one. John The Baptist said, I indeed baptise thee with water but there cometh one after me who shoe latchet I'm not worthy to unloose he shall baptise thee with the Holy Ghost and with fire... To me this baptism by the Lord is the baptism that saves eternally... What are your thoughts?... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  14. JAMES2

    JAMES2
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2001
    Messages:
    633
    Likes Received:
    0
    [ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
     
  15. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    In the theological sense man is Depraved but not Totally Depraved. Human beings are dependent on God bring personal salvation to man. A forgotten passage for some Christians is found in John 1:9. Jesus is ‘ . . . the true Light, Who lighteth every person that cometh into the world.' People early in life at least have a conscience and the gift of human intelligence. God had in His eternal plan that man would retain enough of His Image so that He could offer the call of the Gospel to humankind. Since He died at the Cross to save human beings, He can move on their hearts by the Holy Spirit in convincing people of their need of relationship with Almighty God. God's sovereignty is not all pervading otherwise He would have autocratically saved every human being who will have ever lived especially in the light that He died for every human being. [I John 2:2]. By doing this there would have been a coerced worship which would not have pleased the inner nature of the Living God. In stead of this scenario, the Lord offers salvation to all of His human creation and allows them the leverage to either receive Christ or to pass Him by as an unneeded Person. When a human being believes in Jesus he or she has entered into a lifetime of worship and adoration. This is clearly pleasing to the Triune God even our Father and our Elder brother, Jesus Christ. If humankind was Totally Depraved, God would have no hook with which to retrieve human beings back to His eternal fold.

    As to John 1:9 Albert Barnes says, ‘ . . . the word ‘lighteth' has the form of the future tense. This is that Light so long expected and predicted, which as the result of its coming into the world, will ultimately enlighten all nations.'

    Drs. Tasker, Blum, Matthew Henry and Reverends Raymond Brown, Albert Barnes agree on this matter.

    The Adamic nature that old depraved nature remains in the sinner as well as the saint until the hour of death. We are accepted in the Son through His incomprehensible and most precious atonement and made fit for everlasting life with Him.

    "Ray"
     
  16. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Australian Baptist Student,

    I was impressed with your insight from Acts 2:37. I had forgotten this event in the life of Peter, especially the order of events leading to the people's salvation. It is true that the Holy Spirit works before the sinner opens his or her heart to the Lord. The non-Christian has intelligence and usually a conscience unless it is seared. It is because of these two Divinely implanted entities that God can begin to work on the sinner before their regeneration. Man is Depraved but not Totally Depraved. [Note: John 1:9]

    Keep open to His truth.

    Dr. Berrian
     
  17. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
  18. Aki

    Aki
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2001
    Messages:
    454
    Likes Received:
    0
    i would also use the term total depravity for sinners, but defining it as that the sinner cannot do anything to gain salvation. thus, alone, he has no way for salvation, even if he wants to be saved.

    as far as the ability to trust Christ is concerned, i would like to emphasize on the work of the Spirit in sinners which is conviction. upon conviction, a sinner has the ability to believe in Christ or not. it's not actually irresistible! if a sinner receives Christ, then it will be Christ's righteousness which will be his "passport" to God the Father's acceptance. otherwise, he will be left with his works to show God, hoping for it to be sufficient for his salvation - which isn't.

    [ September 05, 2002, 03:11 AM: Message edited by: Aki ]
     
  19. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2001
    Messages:
    4,005
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jesus said in John 5:40-

    "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

    Why didnt He say "ye can not come to me that ye might have life."
     
  20. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    The only problem you face is you cannot come until you are made alive... Where does it say Eternal... It says life! Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

    3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them... He drew them to him... They didn't draw him to them... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     

Share This Page

Loading...