The thief on the cross

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by North Carolina Tentmaker, Jun 23, 2004.

  1. North Carolina Tentmaker

    North Carolina Tentmaker
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    I had a co worker this morning ask me a question about Luke 23:43. This if from Jesus dealing with the thief on the cross. The verse says
    Now I have always believed that this thief went to heaven with Jesus that day. I do not want to debate whether 'paradise' is the same as heaven or some other nice place. To me that question is settled in II Cor 12:4. If you want to debate that start your own thread.

    The question asked of me this morning deals with Jesus' statement. Was Jesus saying, "You will be with me." Or was He asking, "Shall you be with me?"

    It comes down to a question of punctuation. Was Jesus asking a question or making a statement. We all know that punctuation was added to scripture after the fact. Has anyone studied this? "Shalt thou?" And "thou shalt." do not necessarily mean the same thing.

    What do you think?
     
  2. NateT

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    So from the major translations (did you like how I made the HCSB a major tanslation? ;) ) they all say that "you will" in effect, then it would seem that the KJV saying "shalt thou" is the same as "thou shalt" in this case.

    Just my 2 cents.
     
  3. MTA

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    Jesus was saying that "this very day" you will be with me in Paradise. This is especially relevant when we understand the mechanics of crucifixion and how the condemned many times lingered for several days before finally succumbing to the crucifixion torture. Jesus, with foreknowledge of the events that would result in the ending of their lives and hearing the repentant words of the condemned thief assured him that the same day his suffering would be over and that he would be with him in a place He called Paradise.

    I found this note in Strong's Notes regarding the word translated as "shalt thou be":
    However, while esomai refers to some future point, we have the future time referenced in the Scripture as being "today."

    I have not found anything in my studies that would imply that Christ's words were anything but a statement of promise and assurance to the penitent thief of his impending reality.
     
  4. amixedupmom

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    This verse you have pointed out, Shows one HUGE thing. You do not need to do anything but, accept Christ as your savior, to go to heaven, no works, no baptism, no nothing except that.
     
  5. aefting

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    The fact that He begins with "verily, I say unto you" means that He is making a statement, not asking a question.

    Andy
     
  6. Johnv

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    Jesus was making a statement. In the Greek, Jesus says "I say to you assuredly that today you will be with me in paradise". It's not a question at all, but a statement of assurance.

    You're spending too much time looking at the verse via KJV colored glasses, concentrating on the "shalt thou" verbage. Reversal of the noun and verb following an adverb was common in Elisabethan grammar. It's still technically acceptible in contemporary grammar rules, but not recommended.
     
  7. Dr. Bob

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    Well said. I only add an "Amen". [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  8. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Good answer John, don't they understand the reversal of noun and verb principle.
     
  9. wopik

    wopik
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    North Carolina Tentmaker

    I know some people translate that verse with the comma after "today" -- "I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."

    One or two Bible translations do this, but I don't remember which ones they are. Perhaps someone here does.


    Why? Jesus was supposed to be dead for the next few days. And Jesus has the preeminence (colossians 1:18). He is the firstfruits from the dead (1 cor. 15:23) - not the thief.
     
  10. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    Thanks for the responses, especially aefting and Johnv. I did look at this in the Greek and could find no place where this word was used in a question but I did not know if that was possible or not.

    You have all said pretty much the same thing I thought to start I just wanted to get some second opinions.
     
  11. wopik

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    North Carolina Tentmaker

    If Christ went to Paradise that very day, He would surely have gone into the very presence of God. But Jesus did not go to his Father that day, for he said to Mary three days later, after he had been raised from the dead, "…I am not yet ascended to My Father..." (John 20:17).


    the thief said "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy Kingdom." He did not say "when thou goest." He didn't go anywhere except the grave to go to sleep. It is quite evident that the thief understood that Christ had taught that He would come again.
     
  12. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    Look wopik, I wanted to ask if anyone had considered if Jesus' statement was actually a question. I do not believe it was but lacked concrete evidence. I think we have pretty good evidence through the Greek that is was but I am still not 100% convinced.

    I stated earlier that if you wanted to debate paradise vs. heaven vs. center of the earth or whatever then we could do that on another thread. If you want to do that I would be glad to address your additional comma and the other verses you mentioned.
     
  13. Artimaeus

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    Luk3 23:43 And He answered him, Truly I tell you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.
    The Amplified New Testament

    Statement [​IMG]
     
  14. wopik

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    When Jesus made this statement to the thief, it was in a reply to what the thief said to Jesus:

    Luke 23:42-43, "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou come into your kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you To day, thou shalt be with me in paradise."

    If Christ went to Paradise that very day, He would surely have gone into the very presence of God.

    But Jesus did not go to his Father that day, for he said to Mary three days later, after he had been raised from the dead, "…I am not yet ascended to My Father…" (John 20:17).
     
  15. MTA

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    I believe that statement in John 20:17 is to be understood in a different context. Mary was so overwhelmed at seeing Jesus raised from the dead, that she would have rather stayed with him. Jesus was stating that He was not ascending to his Father soon, nor was he going to disappear from sight soon, so Mary should go and tell the brethren.

    Christ makes no mention of the time between the crucifixion and the resurrection and it is reasonable from what He said to the thief on the cross that his spirit went to Paradise.
     
  16. amixedupmom

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    Ok question If Jesus did not got to paradise and was in hell three days ( I believe this is the Catholic faith cause I was raised with it) ... Where did the thief go? IS there any evidence because he said you shall be with me, does that mean he escorted him to paradise before going to hell for those three days. I'm confused on this issue
     
  17. PastorSBC1303

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    I do not understand why some on here are saying that Jesus could not have went with the theif to the presence of God that very day because he told Mary that he had not yet ascended to the Father. The 2 can go together. Jesus could have went with the Thief to the presence of the Father, and still not officially ascended to the Father.
     
  18. Marcia

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    Wopik, what Bible version did you use that has the comma after "today?" I just looked at 10 versions and none of them have a comma after "today." It is my understanding that it cannot be translated that way.

    Also, when Jesus told Mary he had not yet ascended, that was because he had not yet bodily ascended. He had been with God with the thief, however, but not bodily. He did not have his resurrection body until the 3rd day.
     
  19. wopik

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    Lea

    Lea, Jesus was in hell (Gk., hades: the grave) for three days.


    The thief died and went to his grave. He is dead- unconscious- waiting for the resurrection of the dead, when he will be resurrected. Paul says the dead in Christ are "asleep" - dead (1 Thess. 4:13-15).

    "The dead know nothing" - Eccl. 9:5-6
    "their thoughts perish" - Psalms 146:4

    http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/hell.html
     
  20. amixedupmom

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