The Time is Near - He who is Righteous will be Righteous still

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Nov 6, 2013.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    On the Calvinism vs Arminianism board section - one of our "non cal" friends made this case for a non-Cal support of OSAS - (no free will) after one is saved - but free will before being saved.

    Rev 22 NASB
    10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

    11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”


    Rev 22 KJV
    11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.


    Notice that this speaks of a future time when the wicked will no longer be converted to the Gospel and when the righteous will no longer be subject to backsliding into wickedness and rebellion against God and the loss of salvation.


    -------------------------


    Until that point in time though we DO have the changes - the wicked turn to righteousness and the saints fall from grace, severed from Grace, forgiveness revoked - lose salvation.

    All can agree that at the 2nd coming when all the wicked are destroyed and the righteous are raptured up to heaven with Christ for 1000 years - that the saints will not cross over to become the wicked, and the dead wicked on earth will not switch to become saints by accepting the Gospel.

    But according to Rev 15:8 the time that is predicted (that future point) in Rev 22:10-11 actually takes place when Christ ends His ministry in the heavenly Sanctuary - and the 7 last plagues begin. (see chapter 16).


    So if "He that is righteous will be righteous still" is taken to be a form of OSAS (witch I think almost all agree to) then we know it has not yet happened for it occurs as a change - at a time when the lost also cannot cross over to become saints.

    Certainly true at the 2nd coming, and certainly true in Rev 15:8 prior to the 7 last plagues.

    It was not the case before then - for evangelism is still going on.

    Thus OSAS cannot be true until that future event - that future predicted "change".

    Thoughts?

    in Christ,
    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, Nov 6, 2013
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  2. evangelist-7

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    Well done! ... I agree.

    And in the red U/L above ...
    I see a parallel here with how the BAC who was given imputed righteousness
    will continue to practice his righteousness ... IF he is indeed righteous and currently saved
    (according to the several NT verses I previously posted several times).

    I.E. IMO, a BAC can drop in and out of God's grace and hence salvation,
    depending on his faithfulness, repentance, etc.
    One can fall away for a period and then come back.
    This is his free-will choice, which is why free will is King!

    .
     
    #2 evangelist-7, Nov 6, 2013
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  3. BobRyan

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    How true that is sir!

    I think all agree that in heaven - no saints will be turning to wickedness or rebellion. And this text appears to point to such a time here on earth before the saints are taken to heaven.

    And the interesting thing is that "this future change" that Rev 22:10-11 points to means that we are not under that condition today. In fact we can't be under those conditions until a time comes when no more lost are being saved.

    And all agreed that this is not the case today,

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #3 BobRyan, Nov 6, 2013
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  4. steaver

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    idk about all of what you delved into but this above does jump out as a problem in your opinion.

    The only place and time "fallen from grace" is mentioned in the scriptures is when a saint decides they want to add justification by works/obedience of the law to their regeneration (having begun in the Spirit). This being the case, those who believe one is justified by grace plus works is condemning themselves to lostness, if they evoke the Galatian phrase "fallen from grace" as support against a saint remaining saved.

    There is just no around this fact about the phrase "fallen from grace". I know you like to cherry pick that one out because it sounds appealing to those who don't like eternal security in Christ, however, the context is so easy to present that it actually just makes you look a bit foolish in evoking it.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    On the Calvinism vs Arminianism board section - one of our "non cal" friends made this case for a non-Cal support of OSAS - (no free will) after one is saved - but free will before being saved.

    Rev 22 NASB
    10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

    11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”


    Rev 22 KJV
    11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.


    Notice that this speaks of a future time when the wicked will no longer be converted to the Gospel and when the righteous will no longer be subject to backsliding into wickedness and rebellion against God and the loss of salvation.


    -------------------------


    Until that point in time though we DO have the changes - the wicked turn to righteousness and the saints fall from grace, severed from Grace, forgiveness revoked - lose salvation.

    Possibly because you view Gal 5:4 as a "good thing for saints who fall from Grace?" or is it "as the lost becoming lost-ER"??

    In fact all wickedness seeks its own - rather than submitting to Christ. You have posted in the past as if you think that Gal 5:4 applies to those who believe God in 1John 2;3-7 or 1John 5:2-4, as if they "turn" from being a saint "Saved by Grace" to then "believing" 1John 2:3-6 to be true and thus "fall from grace".

    I have pointed out that believing God's Word in places like 1John 2:3-6 and Rev 14;12 and John 14:15, and 1Cor 7:19 and ... is not the "fallen from Grace" and "severed from Christ" condition that you are reading about in Gal 5:4.

    I know you like to cherry pick on this point - but you have to take the entire topic as the Bible speaks to it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #5 BobRyan, Nov 6, 2013
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  6. saturneptune

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    Mr. Ryan,

    You do have one good point, how can an Arminian say he has free will before salvation but none after. I agree, it makes no sense. In God's sovereign plan, which you no doubt disagree with, election is consistent with OSAS, regardless of your opinion of them.

    This is not the root of the problem. No one who believes in losing salvation has ever defined the line that casts a saved person into that condition. Neither have they ever explained how they regain their salvation, and when Christ died a second, third, fourth, etc time to pay the penalty.
     
  7. Winman

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    You continue to have free will after you are saved, but the difference is that you have a new nature.

    When you trust Christ your spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit.

    1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

    You are now a partaker of the divine nature;

    2 Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

    Note that we have "escaped corruption"

    A person is born into this world with a corruptible spirit and nature. We are made upright (Ecc 7:29) but we can fall from this and become corrupt, a child of the devil.

    When we are born again, our spirit is washed clean and joined to the Holy Spirit, we are now born again of "incorruptible seed".

    1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Now we are born of incorruptible seed, we cannot fall away, for our seed remains in us.

    1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    The true child of God, born of the Spirit, born of incorruptible seed, cannot fall away, because his seed (the Holy Spirit) remains in him. The Holy Spirit is free, but the Holy Spirit cannot sin and fall away.

    Therefore, after death, you are what you were when you died. If you were unjust, you will be unjust still. If you were righteous, you will be righteous still.

    Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

    Perhaps in heaven we will not have free will, we will be righteous and holy, and we will be righteous and holy still. But I think rather it is that we will have a divine nature that would never choose anything but to trust in Christ.

    Those who die in their sins will forever be unjust and filthy.

    We make our choice NOW in this life, there is no choice in the next life.
     
    #7 Winman, Nov 6, 2013
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  8. steaver

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    Neither. "Fallen from Grace" is a negative no matter which way one interprets it, whether it means loss of salvation (as you use it) or whether one sees it as "Christ is become of no effect unto you" (no good works can come of it) which agrees with Jesus' teaching in John 15 "abide in me".

    I have never applied "fallen from grace" to any other scripture than Galatians 5. That would be jerking it out of context to bolster a false point.

    Correct. In fact, to use the phrase "fallen from grace" in any other context than Galatians 5 is in violation of 2Timothy2:15.

    The entire bible only speaks to "fallen from grace" at one point, that is, "you who would be justified by the law". You are the one trying to make it a doctrine taught throughout the entire bible when it plainly is not there but one place and for one specific type of person.

    Question remains, who is that person who would be justified by the law, after having begun in the Spirit?? Any clue?? Just keep reading the post, and maybe examine some of your own :smilewinkgrin:
     
  9. BobRyan

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    Indeed - because the "saved condition" is stated by Paul in Romans 6 to be "Under Grace".

    Those who would "imagine" a saved state "fallen from Grace" are embracing a pure works system where Grace is "optional".

    They may be doing it unwittingly in an effort to defend OSAS against the bible - but they do it all the same.

    It stresses a position that is opposed to the teaching of Paul regarding salvation and the Law of God.

    So when Paul says in 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" he is not saying "because if you do you will have fallen from Grace" as so many of our OSAS friends like to "imagine" in their all-for-OSAS solutions.

    The entire Bible is where we find statement about "forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18 and in Ezek 18 and "you stand only by your faith.. you should fear .. for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you" Romans 11 and of course "you have FALLEN FROM grace you have been SEVERED FROM Christ" Gal 5:4.

    But such instances of losing salvation apparently end at some point in the future according to Rev 22:10 because at that future point the one who is Righteous "will STILL BE righteous" instead of some of them choosing to lose salvation by falling from Grace.

    Essentially the Bible flatly debunks OSAS all through scripture until in Rev 22 it predicts a future state where OSAS will arrive - and where the lost are no longer able to convert over and accept the Gospel just as the saved no longer cross over and become lost.

    Rev 22 NASB
    10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

    11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”


    Rev 22 KJV
    11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.


    Notice that this speaks of a future time when the wicked will no longer be converted to the Gospel and when the righteous will no longer be subject to backsliding into wickedness and rebellion against God and the loss of salvation.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Indeed so there is the "non-cal" solution that claims to reject the Arminian view (because there is no OSAS in the Arminian doctrine) and the Calvinist view.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    "He is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief" Romans 11.

    There is nothing in there about "Christ would have to die again".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. steaver

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    Indeed - because the "saved condition" is stated by Paul in Romans 6 to be "not under the law". As some here would try to bring the law back into a justifying role for the believer.

    No OSAS friend teaches that 1Cor7:19 is speaking about salvation. The issue in Galatians 5 is justification. There is no issue in 1Cor7:19 concerning justification/salvation.

    All OSAS friends teach that a believer SHOULD keep the Commandments of God. We simply do not add the SDA caveat that this commandment keeping is part of the believers justification, for justification is by grace apart from the law.

    Romans11:6 - "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

    But on the other side against OSAS we have believers quoting Galatians 5:4 as evidence one can lose their salvation, and if this is true, then it is also true that the ones who lose their salvation here in Galatians 5 are those who would add works to their justification after having begun in the Spirit. Now who on this board preaches grace plus works?? Figure it out yet??
     
  13. Revmitchell

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    Ok OSAS does not mean no free will after being saved. If you are going to try to represent someone else view you need to do it honestly lest you fall into the same error cals do.
     
  14. BobRyan

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    I think all will agree that if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation (a new nature) old things passed away all things become new. 2Cor 5.

    But the nature leaves us in a two-nature state, we have the sinful nature and we have the new-nature. Paul describes this as "war against the law of my mind -- sin IN me" in Romans 7.

    Now let's suppose that this still results in the case where the "Righteous are righteous still" and the "holy are holy still".

    It would mean that the NEW thing that "is coming" for "the time is near" in Rev 22:10-11 is NOT that the "Righteous are righteous still" but rather that the "filthy are filthy still" and do not covert to Christianity - do not accept the Gospel.

    In other words from Adam onward 'The righteous are righteous still" -- but the "Time is near" Rev 22:10-11 when the "Filthy will be filthy still" and not change, not convert over.

    So then it is instructive that Rev 22 predicts that the new change - that is coming up in the future is not only that the Lost do not convert any longer - but the saved are "righteous still" and do not lose their salvation any longer.

    This means it cannot be the that the saved are the "holy that are holy still" until that future time when the "filthy are filthy still" and we have no more lost persons being saved as well as no more saved people getting into the "Fallen from Grace" and "Severed from Christ" situation of Gal l5:4 or the forgiveness revoked problem of Matt 18 and Ezek 18.

    At least according to that text.

    And of course a static situation like that can only exist for one reason - and that is the Rev 15:8 reason given just before the 7 last plagues.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Well the Arminian model does not allow for OSAS because free will means that the saved saint has the choice of losing salvation and while not all will take the path to become "Severed from Christ" and "Fallen From Grace" Gal 5:4 - apparently as Paul points out - some do.

    And as Christ warns in Matt 18 - forgiveness revoked is what is promised to those who are fully forgiven - and yet who later fail to show that SAME full forgiveness to their fellow servants.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

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    It stresses a position that is opposed to the teaching of Paul regarding salvation and the Law of God.

    So when Paul says in 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" he is not saying "because if you do you will have fallen from Grace" as so many of our OSAS friends like to "imagine" in their all-for-OSAS solutions.

    Oh good! So this is not you trying to bend Gal 5:4 to point at 1Cor 7:19 claiming that when Paul says "what matters is KEEPING the COMMANDMENTS of God" 1 Cor 7:19 he is trying to get people to "fall from Grace" or "Be severed from Christ" Gal 5:4.

    If that is the case - then I am glad we are finally on the same page there.

    Nice going!

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. steaver

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    As is revealed in those here who preach grace plus works for justification.
     
  18. steaver

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    Finally! :thumbsup: This is a slow process :tongue3:
     
  19. Winman

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    The righteous cannot convert back NOW, because their seed (the Holy Spirit) remains in them and they cannot sin.

    1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Now we know all Christians can and do sin on occasion, so this verse cannot be speaking of sin in that sense, so it must be speaking of sinning "continuously" or falling away from being saved in unbelief.

    And after the resurrection there is no way or chance to convert from what you were when you died.
     
  20. BobRyan

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    In 1 John 2:1 "these things I write to you that you sin not, but if anyone does sin we have an advocate with the Father"

    In 1John 3:9 1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Now let's try the solution of replacing "Sin" by "this verse cannot be speaking of sin in that sense, so it must be speaking of sinning "continuously" or falling away from being saved in unbelief." and see where that gets us.

    1 John 2:1 "these things I write to you that you do not fall away from being saved in unbelief (i.e. sin not), but if anyone falls away from being saved in unbelief (i.e. does sin) we have an advocate with the Father"

    It does not work to getting us to a point here nobody does "sin" because it says "if anyone DOES sin we have an advocate with the Father" - and what is more it says "these things I write that you sin not" as if reading, and free will, and choice and motivation is the cause or mechanism for "sin not". And then because that will not always result in the choice to "sin not" he adds "and if anyone does sin...".

    It is very difficult to argue from 1 John 2 and 3 that "no one will ever sin" when he specifically says "if anyone does sin we have an advocate with the Father" - right after saying "if we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin".

    ---

    This leads to the Rev 22:10-11 conclusion that just like we are "not yet" at the time when no lost person will ever cross over and become saved, we are also not yet at the time when no saved person will cease to remain holy - but rather both groups may change, may cross-over now until that future time of Rev 22:10-11.

    I am sure all would agree that the lost do become saved today - still. We are not yet at the future Rev 22:10-11 time.

    So what then does 1John 3:9 mean.

    Notice how 1John 3 fits with 1John 2.

    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgressethalso the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


    John focuses on specific sin - actually committing real sin when he says "
    he that loveth not his brother." John says that comitting sin is to commit "transgression of the Law of God" --

    "4 Whosoever committeth sin transgressethalso the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."


    Paul says "no longer am I the one doing it - but sin dwelling IN me" Romans 7.


    Paul references the new nature vs the sinful nature and claims that the new nature is not choosing sin - but rather the sinful nature. Then in Romans 8 Paul points out that through the power of the Holy Spirit we need not choose to submit to the sinful nature. (Just as he points out victory over sin in Romans 6).


    Paul and John are in agreement.






    in Christ,

    Bob
     

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