The Tragedy of the Himalayas

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Crabtownboy, Dec 7, 2009.

  1. Crabtownboy

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    The big wars of the 21st century will most likely be over water.


     
  2. targus

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    What sort of scenario are you picturing?

    Localized disputes over river flows from one country to another or something larger - like China attacking the U.S. over control of the Great Lakes?
     
  3. rbell

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    This is one of the many fallacies of "global warm," er, "climate change."

    (Remember...until a few years ago, the earth was set at 72 degrees, 88 degrees, or 20 degrees, depending on your latitude. It wasn't until evil capitalism, evil Americans, and non-Priuses arrived that this changed.)

    Will wars be fought over water? That might be in the realm of possibility.

    Will that have anything to do with global warm, er, climate change? No way.

    But hey, CTB, keep on with the fairy tales, if it makes you feel better.
     
  4. exscentric

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    No, there will be no need for wars in the future. We will all get along and rise to the occasion. Those down stream will gladly lay down their lives so that those upstream can live. The Obama will see to the needs of families left behind and destitute so that those giving their lives for world peace can go to Nervana knowing that they have done right and that they will be in a better place surrounded by ........... Oh that will be the day:thumbsup:
     
  5. Crabtownboy

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    If the Ganges, the Yellow River, the Yangtze, etc. dries up there will be a huge number of people without water, industry without water. It will be a very bad situation for millions upon millions of people.

    In fact it has already started .... from the same article:

    When I worked in China in 1995 several villages near Xi'an, where I worked, ran out of water. It was only about two days later that near warfare broke out between the villages over the small amount of water that was still available. This did not make the national or international news. As the Chinese say, "You do not put your dirty linen out for all to see." The only reason I heard about this was from a friend who grew up near these villages and still had family and friends in that area. Xi'an is in Shaanxi Province and borders the Gobi Desert. Thus it is quite dry. The flow of water in the Yellow River, even at that time, was markedly less than previously. This was partly due to less rain and also by more use by industry.
     
    #5 Crabtownboy, Dec 7, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 7, 2009
  6. targus

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    "...between the villages..."

    So perhaps you made an overstatement by saying, "The big wars of the 21st century will most likely be over water".

    Perhaps it would be more accurate to say, "Many local disputes..."
     
  7. Crabtownboy

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    My prediction is that when whole countries, like India and China, start running out of water then the probability of big wars will be very great. Only time will tell. India and China are already having problems.

    During the summer of 1998 the no water from the Yellow River reached the sea for 250 days. In 18 of the last 26 years the Yellow River has run dry further and further upstream from the Bohai Sea.

    http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache...dry&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

    http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache...dry&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

    The bottom line is it does not matter if the shortage is man made or by nature ... here it is obviously caused by a great degree by man ... when people run out of water they become nasty very quickly.
     
    #7 Crabtownboy, Dec 7, 2009
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  8. targus

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    What identifiable water source is there that may become a future source of conflict between India and China?
     
  9. Crabtownboy

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    The source of several major rivers in India, China and Vietnam rise in the Himalayas. As the glaciers disappear there will be tension over who controls the water at the source and how it will be distributed.

    How do you believe China would react if India began channeling glacier melt runoff away from the Yellow River to the Ganges ... or the other way around?
     
  10. rbell

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    No.

    It matters a great deal.

    The anti-American, anti-freedom, personal property-destroying initiatives known as "climate change legislation" or "c(r)ap and trade (better described as "crap and tax"), is enacted upon the premise that man is completely the cause for this "dilemma."

    It's one thing to drain a lake. It's another to completely alter the earth's climate. But freedom-haters (a group that you seem to sympathize with) will take a local issue, and attempt to destroy a great nation with it.

    Fortunately, it appears intelligent, freedom-loving people are waking up to this travesty of liberty and justice. Maybe, if we're fortunate, this will fall flat and embarass the likes of the one of the greatest swindlers, and idiots, of our generation, Owl Gore.
     
  11. targus

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    The water is controlled by the country containing the source and rivers flowing from the source.

    This has been the same throughout human history.

    Why is it suddenly a concern to you?

    Correct me if I am wrong - but doesn't water come from melted ice?

    Are not these melting glaciers then a source of more water?
     
  12. Crabtownboy

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    The source countries like Nepal, Tibet and and Bhutan have no real power.

    This has been the same throughout human history.

    We have not had this type of problem before of which I am aware.

    Why is it suddenly a concern to you?

    Nothing sudden about it. I have know of this problem for some time now.

    Correct me if I am wrong - but doesn't water come from melted ice?

    Are not these melting glaciers then a source of more water?[/quote]

    The glaciers are disappearing.

    go to: http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1944167,00.html
     
  13. targus

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    If the glaciers are disappearing it is because they are melting - so there should be more water coming from them then when they were not melting.

    Why would there then be a water shortage?
     
  14. Crabtownboy

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    You need to read the article and do some research.

    What happens when there is no glacier left, or enough has melted that the amount of water is less and less in the rivers?

    You reply indicates your thinking is too short term or perhaps you just want to argue. I am not sure.

    Anyway, read the entire article and the links. Thanks.

     
  15. targus

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    Oh, I see how it is.

    You started yet another thread on something that you are unable to discuss because you don't know what you are talking about.

    You make claims about future "big wars" but in the end are merely talking through your hat.

    No doubt what prompted this thread was other discussion about the fake and destroyed global warming data.

    Lacking actual proof of man made global warming you thought that you would help out the cause by making alarming claims of "big wars of the 21st century".

    You need to get a new play book - the old plays are getting predictable and boring.
     
    #15 targus, Dec 7, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 7, 2009
  16. Revmitchell

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    I see CTB is spouting more propganda. Now here is the real story;


    There is an increase in melt in lower elevation glaciers and the hazards of moraine damned lakes are real, but I believe that the rate of retreat of the glaciers has been exaggerated’ he told us later at a press conference. When I asked him about the Indus Basin, he replied that he would like to do a conclusive study on the Indus Basin soon, but he believed that the glaciers there are quite healthy.

    Of course Professor Armstrong has not exactly gone up to the glaciers in these mountains to do the study — the research was done mostly by satellite imagery provided by NASA and other information. ‘There can be a large margin of error when doing remote sensing’, explained the Director General of the International Center for Integrated Mountain Development (ICIMOD based in Kathmandu) when I turned to him for further clarification. ‘The problem is that there is a lack of information and the higher up we go, the less we have. No research is done regularly on this region’.

    Another scientist who does agree with Raina’s report is Kenneth Hewitt, a geo-scientist at Wilfrid Laurier University in Waterloo, Canada, who recently returned from an expedition to K2. He observed five glacier advances and a single retreat in the Karakorams. Such evidence certainly challenges the view that the glaciers in the region are disappearing fast.

    I got the chance to talk to Ken Hewitt a few days before he left for Skardu in September. ‘Nowhere in the upper Indus Basin do you have the collapse of glaciers like in Nepal and the Alps’, he told me. ‘They are actually holding their own or growing. They could well be growing because of climate change. The summer weather is cloudier and there is more snowfall’. Hewitt pointed out that this may be a temporary phenomenon and that there was a serious need to look closely at what is happening and that more glaciers needed to be tracked. Wapda, he says, is starting to operate field stations again to monitor the glaciers.

    Growing glaciers, however, are not exactly good news. According to Hewitt, ‘Surging glaciers are dangerous because they store water. The Hunza River has declined by 20 per cent due to the advance of glaciers in the area. These glaciers are storing ice… This is a different problem and needs to be investigated’.

    What emerges from talking to all these scientists is that the glaciers in the region are certainly changing due to climate change, but in what way, we just don’t know for sure. In the meantime, ICIMOD would like to see the Himalayan countries get together on one platform to combine their research and give a clear message to the rest of the world during the UN’s Climate Change Summit to be held in Copenhagen this December.

    More Here
     
  17. Revmitchell

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    According to a flurry of recent reports by the BBC and other mass media, the glaciers in the Himalayan mountains are melting at a furious pace. Of course this is taken as proof that climate change is still taking place at an ever accelerating rate, despite the fact the global temperatures have remained flat for the past decade. What, then, explains the rapidly retreating Himalayan glaciers? Nothing, because the glaciers are not shrinking. A new report by a senior Indian glaciologist states that the glaciers remain frozen and quite intact, thank you.

    The report by Vijay Kumar Raina, formerly of the Geological Survey of India, seeks to correct widely spread reports that India's 10,000 or so Himalayan glaciers are shrinking rapidly in response to climate change. It's not true, Raina says. The rumors may have originated in the Asia chapter of the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's (IPCC's) 2007 Working Group II report, which claims that Himalayan glaciers “are receding faster than in any other part of the world and, if the present rate continues, the likelihood of them disappearing by the year 2035 and perhaps sooner is very high if the Earth keeps warming at the current rate.” Evidently, the bogus reporting was based on measurements from only a handful of glaciers.

    Raina's report draws on published studies and unpublished findings from half a dozen Indian groups who have analyzed remote-sensing satellite data or conducted on-site surveys at remote locations often higher than 5000 meters. While the report surveyed of a number of glaciers, two particularly iconic ones stand out. The first is the 30-kilometer-long Gangotri glacier, source of the Ganges River. Between 1934 and 2003, the glacier retreated an average of 70 feet (22 meters) a year and shed a total of 5% of its length. But in 2004 and 2005, the retreat slowed to about 12 meters a year, and since September 2007 Gangotri has been “practically at a standstill,” according to Raina's report. \


    More Here
     
  18. Revmitchell

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    Man made climate change has been debunked
     
  19. Winman

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    A thread like this is no fun without pics. Here is one of the glaciers that was reported to have shrunk by 50%. Slightly exaggerated.

    [​IMG]

    Anybody ever see the documentary about the P-38 that landed on a Greenland glacier in WWII? They found it 50 years later and it was under 268 feet of ice!

    http://p38assn.org/glacier-girl-recovery.htm

    Yeah boy, these glaciers are shrinking away quickly. :laugh:
     
  20. Bro. Curtis

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    C.T.Boy's credibility has a much faster shrinking rate than do any glaciers.


    Targus, you da man !!!!!!!
     

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